Norimitsu mei - gimei?

[gtstcactus]

Hey Folk,

 

I have this wakizashi (posted about in nihonto forum) which is signed Bishu osafune junin norimitsu.

 

So far it seems the mei does not match any known examples...

 

So is it gimei?

 

I'm no expert so am likely to be shot down for this theory but if one was forging a norimitsu mei wouldn't they sign it the way the orignal was signed and not in a different way? The blade also lacks the date being inscribed which I am told was often done by some norimitsu of osafune school (I think I recall right).

 

It was suggested that it could be an unknown Norimitsu or later generation.... Is there anyway to find out about "relatively unknown" smiths?

[Jean]

In early/Middle Murmachi the classical mei was:

 

"Bishu Osafune Norimitsu", with often a Nengo (date) on the other side.

 

In sue Muromachi : There were short mei without date, mostly kazu uchi mono.

 

Generally "Bishu Osafune + smith name".

 

What is very strange is the association of "ju" with "Bishu Osafune", unseen with this smith.

 

Generally "ju" is associated with "Bizen Kuni"

 

Later generation, unrecorded, why not but .....

[David McDonald]

Dear Jean

 

When you said that ju was not associated with Bishu Osafune my first thought

was that this can not be right. I was sure that there were many Bishu Osafune ju.

I have a Norimitsu mine is signed Bizen Kuni ju Norimitsu.

 

So go out Hawley’s -- you were right no Bishu Osafune ju but I did not give

up so went to Toko Taikan – you were right no Bishu Osafune ju but I did not give

up so when to Nihonto Meikan -- ha! there is a Bishu Osafune ju Norimitsu listed

On page 751 the second listing with a date of 1356 (embun or yembun period)

The listing has a double circle so must be a good smith.

 

The sword at hand does not seem that old so later generation?

Unrecorded signature style?

 

Always fun getting out the books and doing some reading.

 

Later

david

 

 

In early/Middle Murmachi the classical mei was:

 

"Bishu Osafune Norimitsu", with often a Nengo (date) on the other side.

 

In sue Muromachi : There were short mei without date, mostly kazu uchi mono.

 

Generally "Bishu Osafune + smith name".

 

What is very strange is the association of "ju" with "Bishu Osafune", unseen with this smith.

 

Generally "ju" is associated with "Bizen Kuni"

 

Later generation, unrecorded, why not but .....

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

The sword at hand does not seem that old so later generation?

Unrecorded signature style?

 

Likely more gimei than unrecorded.

[Bugyotsuji]

Just to add spice to the story, I have found no Norimitsu 則光　Mei recorded with "Jin/nin"...

[gtstcactus]

David,

 

By any chance is there an image of the Norimitsu mei with ju in it?

 

Do you know if he used the same characters for his name?

 

Is there any / much info on said norimitsu?

[Jean]

Dear David,

 

When you said that ju was not associated with Bishu Osafune

 

I love bashing heads.

 

Re read carefully my post (and BTW your answer). I let you apologize then I will give you the answers (Unless you give me the two answers I am expecting)

 

I feel kind of jolly today :D

[Jean]

Dear David,

 

The 2 reasons are:

 

1 - You have cutdown my post which begins by :

 

"In early/Middle Murmachi the classical mei was:"

 

You are quoting a Nambokucho swordsmith

 

2 - We are talking of wakizashi which eliminates Embun Nambokucho.

[sanjuro]

Lunge....Parry......Riposte...... and Touche'.

 

Sorry David..... I couldn't resist. :D

[gtstcactus]

Jean,

 

are you saying wakizashi were not made in the Nambokucho period? I thought they were. Have I misunderstood what you were saying?

[David Flynn]

Kodachi (signed tachimei), not wakizashi.

[gtstcactus]

What about the wakizashi signed Hiromitsu from nambokucho period, at the Nezu Institute of Fine arts tokyo?

 

Or the wakizashi signaed soshu ju akihiro from 1364 at the kimura art museum, kanagwa

 

Or the wakizashi by sadamune known as Fushimi Sadamune kamakura - nambokucho period, at the kurokawa institute of ancient culture

 

or the 2 wakizashi known as tokuzenin sadamune, and monoyoshi sadamune.

 

These are all from the book / catalogue Masamune: A Genius Swordsmith and his legacy.

 

The signed ones are signed with katanamei. Unless I have misunderstood something it seems to me wakizashi were being made in the kamakura - nambokucho period

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Jason, I think they speak about shinogi-zukuri wakizashi not hira zukuri ones.

[Guido]

What about the wakizashi signed Hiromitsu from nambokucho period, at the Nezu Institute of Fine arts tokyo?

 

Or the wakizashi signaed soshu ju akihiro from 1364 at the kimura art museum, kanagwa

 

Or the wakizashi by sadamune known as Fushimi Sadamune kamakura - nambokucho period, at the kurokawa institute of ancient culture

 

or the 2 wakizashi known as tokuzenin sadamune, and monoyoshi sadamune.

 

These are all from the book / catalogue Masamune: A Genius Swordsmith and his legacy.

 

The signed ones are signed with katanamei. Unless I have misunderstood something it seems to me wakizashi were being made in the kamakura - nambokucho period

Congratulations, Jason, you just completely re-wrote Nihontô history as we knew it until today! Never waver from your path, the people of this forum are just trying to confuse you - you obviously got it all worked out.

[DirkO]

[gtstcactus]

Guido,

 

What are you getting at?

 

I'm not trying to be smart, clever or otherwise. I just want to find out about this Norimitsu!

 

When I asked if Jean was stating wakizashi weren't made in the Nambokucho period, David poped in and said "Kodachi (signed tachimei), not wakizashi".

 

I then found in a couiple of my books several wakizashi signed in the katanamei style dating to the Nambokucho...

 

The stuff I found appears to contradict the statement by David (unless I misunderstood what he meant" regardless of them being hira-zukuri, shinog-zukuri or shobu-zukuri!

[reinhard]

Don't worry. You've got it all right. Like Guido said: Most of us are here just to confuse you.

 

What you need to know, however, is that Guido's evil twin, held prisoner in a cage and taken off public, eventually breaks loose. Fortunately for those with a sense humour, he breaks free every now and then and is posting under the name of his decent brother.

 

reinhard

[Guido]

Who's who, what do you think?

Hint: my evil brother is a little taller than me ...

[gtstcactus]

Sorry guys, I've missed the joke, or just don't get the humour.....

[loiner1965]

if i wanted to buy a decent nihonto rather than the guntos that i have which i am pleased about and cherish, my first port of call would be the members on here for advice....

i would certainly not go against their advice or not heed it.

not saying you did but just posting for future collectors to listen to experience.

[kusunokimasahige]

If someone tells you your sword is not as good as you might have hoped, take it, and do not

start to moan.

 

I agree with both Guido and Reinhard, just so you know.

 

The sword is not as good as you might think. Whether or not it is Gimei does not really matter,

since a mediocre or very damaged sword of a great name is as worthless as any other derelict

muck on the market.

 

KM

 

[Edited due to what we all know but wont state anymore...]

[gtstcactus]

KM,

 

1. I have not tried to outwit anyone.

 

2. Are you a qualified psychiatrist? A medical dotor? If not keep your opinions to yourself. You are less qualified to comment on me and my ADHD than I am to comment on Nihonto. "it's clear to you I don't have ADHD". Show what you know. Quite frankly I don't give a rats if I insult you as you seem to feel free to insult me.

 

3. When someone tells me a sword isn't as good as I hoped I don't believe just one person, I seek other opinions also.... Just like a 2nd opinion from a doctor/psychiatrist (which I have for my ADHD and confirmed diagnosis).

 

Maybe you should just not post in my threads, you've not once contributed anything useful if I recall right. Just for you I'll post a couple more delightful swords later today!

[drbvac]

Common guys - we are all here to learn and if not to offer advice at least lets not bash each other -- if a question is posed and answered let it go . If I answer "yes the house is on fire" and someone wants a second opinion let them carry on - me I answered the question to the best of my ability and I am out of the house on fire.

 

The problem it poses to us surfers who read all posts for the knowledge freely given when the post start getting sarcastic I lose all sense of whose jerkin who and what to follow in terms of the theme or point being made.

[cabowen]

We should all strive to cultivate new collectors as they are the caretakers of the future. We all started from zero and some people take longer than others to see the light. Some never do, but I think we cut off our own noses by being too quick to slam people who are simply enthusiastic and naive....It seems all too common here to choose the hammer when a flyswatter would do....

[Grey Doffin]

I find the back & forth bickering boring, childish, and not anywhere near what I come here for; I wish everyone would cut it out. Please, when you're responding to a post pretend you're answering your mother.

If nothing else, go the the Izakaya forum and read my post under "Quotes". One of my quotes is very much to the point.

Grey

[David McDonald]

Dear All

 

Look what happens when you have to work and can not

read the Message Board!!!!

 

Jacques – I agree most likely gimei but might still be just

an unrecorded smith (but not likely unrecorded)

 

Jason – I hope there is an attached image of the listing.

In the listing there are notes of books but sorry

my Japanese is not that good to translate. Here is

what I can read.

 

Bishu Osafune ju Norimitsu

2nd generation

Engen (Yengen) period 1336

Bizen

Then I think name of books

 

Last dated swords I believe.

Engen 2nd year

Ooan 3rd year and 6th year

 

Sorry not ju nin just the ju

 

Jean – bashing heads????

 

When I read the posts about Norimitsu I got out my

KATANA and looked at the mei. When you said that

Ju was not associated --- “unseen with this smith”

I recalled that I had seen Bishu Osafune ju Norimitsu when

I was researching my katana. But as I listed in my email

this was not an easy task as you were correct that almost

all followed your note. But there is one.

 

Wakizashi/Katana whats a few ‘sun’ among friends.

 

Keith – Jōdan no kamae….. shomen

Does a cut to the head beat a small touche'?

 

Back to tsukamaki – I am working on a string style wrap where there are two strands and at the cross over the inside strans are hineri maki and the outside strands are rolled. Looks nice but took a while to figure out.

 

Later

david

[Jean]

David,

 

When I read the posts about Norimitsu I got out my

KATANA and looked at the mei. When you said that

Ju was not associated ---

 

Once again, you are extracting a sentence out of a context. You are cutting the interesting part which is the time/era which is "Muromachi" I split my post between early and Middle Muromachi and on sue Muromachi and added general comments.

 

You are mentionning a mei in Nambokucho which is irrelevant with my post, no smith recorded with "Bishu Osafune junin..." in Muromachi

 

In Bizen school, the era is fundamental as it enables you to detect Gimei from the Syntax

[sanjuro]

David.

 

Keith – Jōdan no kamae….. shomen

Does a cut to the head beat a small touche'?

 

It would if you had made one ...... The jury is still out on this one. :D

Your allusion to Japanese swordsmanship as against mine to European swordsmanship, is similar to the comparison of your comment with Jeans comment. You guys are not comparing apples with apples but rather apples with water melons. When you both get on the same page, a verdict will emerge. I'll leave it to Jean's post above to explain this to you.

En Guarde gentlemen!

[gtstcactus]

Is there any chance the norimitsu who signed this wakizashi was lazy and left out the date? perhaps he felt this masterpiece was timeless and needed no date....

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

David,

 

Toko taikan latest edition :