The pair of holes in the seppadai; what are they?

[Lorenzo]

Thank you Bernard to let me use your tsuba pictures to ask this question.

 

What is the exact and known purpose of the two holes drilled on this seppadai?

It's not the first time I've seen it, Henry's ko-kagamishi papered tsuba has the same, but unplugged.

 

 

 

 

 

Any idea?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Lorenzo

[IanB]

Lorenzo, One reason for holes like this is that a lot of tsuba were converted for use as light-switch covers and the holes were used for the screws that held them to the backing. I can't believe that is the only reason, I've seen too many and have one myself, but I know some were.

Ian Bottomley

[Lorenzo]

bwahaha Ian I'm not sure if you are joking or if you are serious, in both cases I had a good laugh

I might explore the idea myself, but I not providing matter of discussion to my wife any more

 

...then, if this is the real reason my laughing goes a bit silent but one never knows I've seen the Victorian cutlery using kozuka so...

[b.hennick]

I remember a Victorian table that had a ring of tsuba as a decoration. Each tsuba had two holes for little nails that held the tsuba in place. It was a sad sight.

[Ford Hallam]

In some cases these are rivets that are holding a san-mai stack together.

[IanB]

Lorenzo, I am only partially joking. I remember one really good Hikone bori tsuba that had been filed flat on the back so that it fitted against the base better. I was once told by someone who had actually seen a tsuba used for a switch cover, but I suspect most were fastened to other items as decoration. The ToKen Soc. UK once had a description in its newsletter of someone who had laid a patio with sukashi tsuba set in the cement. This kind of thing was done in the days when you could buy such things, threaded on a string, in dozens.

Ian

[Lorenzo]

Thank you Ian

 

So, as for now, we have two known uses; one is for the sanmai construction and one is for using the tsuba as a decoration on western furnitures.

 

Regarding the second hypothesis I am now thinking; what is the probability that a tsuba drilled to be used as a decoration goes back to Japan to be papered and then bought by another westerner?

I have seen two tsuba like this on the NMB, if Bernard confirms he bought his own tsuba from Japan. Not saying it is impossible but I find it not plausible... so I suspect there might be another case.

I've heard that this two holes might be used to keep seppa in place but I'm not convinced by that, I see no reason to do so :?

 

Best,

Lorenzo

[Henry Wilson]

For reference here is the Kagamishi tsuba with holes that Lorenzo mentions. I think they were drilled to hold seppa to the tsuba but that is just my opinion.

 

BTW this tsuba will be in the 2011 KTK catlog which will be available from October this year :D

[Curran]

*Squak* "What Ford said."

(Polly the Parrot wants a cracker)

 

I thought the sanmai peg was common knowledge, especially to someone experienced like Lorenzo.

I was implying Bernard's might be sanmai, but wasn't sure.

 

 

And yep.... Henry's is hardly sanmai peg construction. Those are pretty straight forward drilled holes.

[Lorenzo]

I thought the sanmai peg was common knowledge, especially to someone experienced like Lorenzo.

 

 

And yep.... Henry's is hardly sanmai peg construction. Those are pretty straight forward drilled holes.

 

Hence the question

 

Thank you Henry for putting (again..) your tsuba into the line. I am really getting crazy after those two holes

[IanB]

Lorenzo, Further to Ford's comment, at the weekend I saw a Miochin tsuba made like a helmet bowl from about 16 - 20 separate radial plates held together by three or four rivets on each plate. What struck me as odd was that each plate was slightly domed, which for helmets, was a Saotome construction rather than Miochin one. Around the edge you could see the gap between the domed plate and the flattened part of the plate below. The seppa dai was a separate flat plate on each side, held by about 6 rivets through the whole stack. Obviously in this case there was no alternative but to add the seppa dai as separate pieces. Note the burr around the holes in Henry's tsuba - that I think clearly shows the holes were done for some purpose other than for use on a sword. However on Bernard's tsuba the plugs in the holes have been made from the same or very similar alloy to the tsuba itself and patinated to match. That suggests it was done in Japan, at the very least, and by someone who knew about tsuba.

Ian B

[Brian]

Pssst.....I believe that is Thierry Bernard. Mr Bernard....or Thierry.

At least I hope I have this right. With the Japanese way of naming, now I have no idea.

 

Brian

[Lorenzo]

Brian is right.

Gents, once more sorry for my English. Please blame my parents and the Italian school system, but not me for being such a lazy man who don't study :lol:

[IanB]

Profuse apologies.

Ian

[Lorenzo]

Dear Ian, why apologizes? not needed; we was talking about the same tsuba

 

Ok. so. To proceed with the discussion, we should now know if Thierry tsuba is sanmai or not

 

Best,

Lorenzo

[Jean]

we was talking

 

No, No Lorenzo, you did it again

[Lorenzo]

[Jean]

Gents, once more sorry for my English

 

We were talking and not was You did it on purpose naughty boy to see if anyone would spot it.

Beware, Frogman is watching (less glorious than Batman, I know)

 

PS: sorry I could not resist

[Lorenzo]

:lol:

 

Where/was

Do/does...

This these

Will never learn to use this? Properly

[Thierry BERNARD]

Pssst.....I believe that is Thierry Bernard. Mr Bernard....or Thierry.

At least I hope I have this right. With the Japanese way of naming, now I have no idea.

 

Simply Thierry

 

Profuse apologies.

 

don't worry even french people sometime make this mistake

 

Ok. so. To proceed with the discussion, we should now know if Thierry tsuba is sanmai or not

 

here is the answer !

[Lorenzo]

Thank you Thierry.

 

Remains the example where the tsuba is not sanmai; if nobody else have anything (nothing? Now I am scared to make mistakes) to add then should we consider the holes a westerner addition that has nothing to do with nihonto?

 

Best,

Lorenzo

[Curran]

Lorenzo,

 

Eh..... It IS 3 piece construction. No????

 

_____________________________________

Your English is fine.

Italian has too many VERB tenses.

Italian Subjunctive is worse than Spanish Subjunctive.

[Lorenzo]

Curran, you are not understanding me. I KNOW about the sanmai and I see this one is, BUT there are examples with holes where sanmai is not the reason, and that is what I am asking about from the beginning

[Henry Wilson]

As for a lot of things if in doubt I tend towards Occam's Razor, that being the simplest theory.

 

If the holes are not for sanmai construction, what else could they be for? Light switch plates, Victorian tables are all possibilities but ...

 

Concerning my Kagamishi tsuba, the two holes are not drilled in line which to me suggest that they were done by someone not especially skilled and / or they were drilled with the intention of not being seen. Considering the position on the tsuba, ie. the seppadai were the seppa are placed, I still believe that the holes were used to hold seppa in place. As noted, the metal removed from the holes is slightly polished suggesting they were covered by a seppa. The tsuba is very thin especially around the nakago ana so for the tsuba to fit to a narrower sword there is not much metal present to able someone to use a chisel and make the hole narrower. It is possible that a seppa was fitted to the seppadai using the holes and rivets to compensate for the condition of the nakago ana. This to me is quite simple and applying Occam's Razor is the theory I find easiest to accept.

 

That is all for now. I am off to Sensoji.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h ... 92&bih=886