New aquisition... Ko-kinko Tsuba. Comments?

gtstcactus · June 12, 2011

Hey just thought I'd post a pick of my latest Tsuba aquisition.....

The pic is the only auction pic I have. The tsuba should arrive in a few days.....

I'm told its a ko-kinko work....SIZE = 70 mm tall by 65 mm wide

It's made of yamagane...

It is NOT a cast repro! There are no cast seams to be seen!

I quite like the wave design... I'll post some more pics when I can...

Any comments or thoughts?

Bazza · June 12, 2011

Hey just thought I'd post a pick of my latest Tsuba aquisition.....

Any comments or thoughts?

I'll have a wild stab and say it looks like a sanmei with a fukurin rather than a solid piece as "yamagane" would suggest.

Regards,

Barry Thomas

aka BaZZa.

gtstcactus · June 12, 2011

So are you saying it's of sanmei construction? And therefore not made of yamagane? Which means you think it is something other than ko-kinko???

have i understood you correct?

Thierry BERNARD · June 12, 2011

So are you saying it's of sanmei construction? And therefore not made of yamagane? Which means you think it is something other than ko-kinko???

have i understood you correct?

just wait few days and you will know!

gtstcactus · June 12, 2011

Thierry,

You mean wait a few days til it arrives?

gtstcactus · June 12, 2011

Also forgot to mention, it's a papered Tsuba. Origami from NBTHK - Hozon origami....

Thierry BERNARD · June 12, 2011

Thierry,

You mean wait a few days til it arrives?

of course! :D

Also forgot to mention, it's a papered Tsuba. Origami from NBTHK - Hozon origami....

so if paper say ko-kinko it's ko-kinko!

Brian · June 12, 2011

So how about pics of the origami. I am sure you wouldn't have spent the money without discovering what the papers say first?

Not much we can tell you that the papers won't...

Brian

Thierry BERNARD · June 12, 2011

for reference, one of my ko-kinko tsuba !

gtstcactus · June 12, 2011

Pics of the origami to come as soon as the courier brings them and the tsuba to me.... Given that I can't read Japanese, I still won't know what it says exactly! Perhaps the good members will help me there. I know the papers state it's ko-kinko.

I wasn't expecting anyone to tell me something the origami won't. I Was just inviting comment on it.....

Thierry BERNARD · June 12, 2011

古金工 (ko-kinko)

gtstcactus · June 12, 2011

That's a nice tsuba Thierry!

Curran · June 13, 2011

Well, I thought it fairly straight forward.

I would have dated it pretty much on the margin timeline between ko and not ko, but otherwise... yes, kinko.

Simple, yet nice.

Wav pattern of tandem waves.

3-3 at top

2-2 middle

4-4 at bottom

kozuka ana looks original since it doesn't cut through what would have been the 2-2 pattern at that point, but it does cut into the seppa dai indicating a slimmer saya. Therefore maybe I would have given it the benefit of the doubt as ko-kinko.

Don't think it is 3 piece construction, but hard to tell from photos. Mr. Bernard's on the other hand has the small left and right pegs on the seppa dai, so is it 3 piece? Interesting motif.

Ko kinko can be very simple but pleasing.

Now the ko-ko-kinko like Boris and Mariusz have... that is the rare rare stuff. Learn the kantei points on those things and burn them into memory.

Lorenzo · June 13, 2011

Mr. Bernard's on the other hand has the small left and right pegs on the seppa daiy.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but if Bernard gives me the permission, can I use his picture for opening a new one asking about that two holes?

end of the off-topic

Ford Hallam · June 13, 2011

Is it only me but doesn't the doubling up of the waves peaks seem a bit "wrong" to anyone else? I mean the way they're arranged in pairs and in repeat rows as they are.

My feeling is that the waves design was drawn out by someone who didn't understand the essence of it's rhythm.

I find the outline of the wave peaks a bit amateurish also and the nakago ana, specifically the top part, seems unconvincing to me. If that nakago ana was fitted to a nakago consider where the habaki would be and how that would relate to the saya and tsuka.

Just my opinion but this looks like a modern amateur piece.

Regards,

Ford

Thierry BERNARD · June 13, 2011

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but if Bernard gives me the permission, can I use his picture for opening a new one asking about that two holes?

no problems! i'll try to post better pictures of this tsuba

gtstcactus · June 13, 2011

Ford, thanks for your opinion......

Would the use of seppa not remedy where the habaki would be and how it would relate to the saya and tsuka?

I guess as everyone is entitled to an opinion Ford you are entitled to feel it looks modern and amateur, however the good folk at the NBTHK must have felt a little different when they gave it the entry level hozon origami. If I recall right it's supposed to be around 400 years old.

When I receive the origami I'll post a scan here.

Is it only me but doesn't the doubling up of the waves peaks seem a bit "wrong" to anyone else? I mean the way they're arranged in pairs and in repeat rows as they are.

My feeling is that the waves design was drawn out by someone who didn't understand the essence of it's rhythm.

I find the outline of the wave peaks a bit amateurish also and the nakago ana, specifically the top part, seems unconvincing to me. If that nakago ana was fitted to a nakago consider where the habaki would be and how that would relate to the saya and tsuka.

Just my opinion but this looks like a modern amateur piece.

Regards,

Ford

Ford Hallam · June 13, 2011

I don't see how a seppa would rectify anything really, all that does is act as a gap filler. It doesn't alter the alignment of the nakago at all.

An NBTHK origami is also "just" an opinion, albeit in Japanese. They have been known to be wrong... and faked too. You only have to do a tracing of the lines that define the waves to see how amateurish the thing is. But if you choose to regard this as a pleasing example of early kinko work good luck with that. Personally I think it's very poorly made and not very at all convincing.

Curran · June 13, 2011

about 400 years = dividing line between 'ko'-kinko and kinko.

For once, I think I disagree with Ford

The past 2 weeks have had me looking at a cornucopia of ko-kinko and early Higo wave tsuba: in two different avenues of study. NOW they suddenly seem to overlap here, and I would say I've seen such elementary renderings of various designs on other ko-kinko pieces. ex: http://www.nona.dti.ne.jp/~sword/tuba/t0373take.html

I've also seem some rather elementary wave renderings on early works of a very big artist who later became partially known for his wave design that would pass down through generations of his school. I would give my Omiya Bizen Morokage sword for that one tsuba, and have it be a permanent member of my small collection.

I think the ko-kinko under discussion is just a simple nice enough tsuba that would look good on a muted uchigatana koshirae of the time with a thin "throw away" saya.

_________________________________________________________________

That said, I must agree with Ford about the NBTHK fittings shinsa these days. Hozon papers don't really mean much to me any more unless they are to confirm a mei. I've also seen too many known modern pieces get 'Hozon' and also shake and bake tsuba get 'Hozon', and some attributions that are certifiably wrong by up to 200 years. What is up NBTHK... too many Hozon submissions and getting kinda sloppy about the process?

I still respect their level of shinsa at the Tokubetsu Hozon level, where they seem to give things much more attention. But that is just $600 straight out and doesn't make sense for anything worth $3000 or less. Let me stress that the last decade I've been very impressed by several of the Yoshikawa led Fittings Team for their NTHK. They're sort of brutal and may pink some things they shouldn't, but their fittings papers are very respectable opinions (often on the conservative side). For fittings, very agreeable alternative to the NBTHK Hozon these days- though old school collectors may not embrace it.

Lorenzo · June 13, 2011

Sort of O.T.. the second time today, sorry Brian.

I've also seen too many known modern pieces get 'Hozon'

Isn't the only requisite apart quality that the makers is deceased? If so, modern pieces can get Hozon.

gtstcactus · June 13, 2011

I'm pretty sure pieces fail hozon papers these day for reasons other than the maker is still alive...

paulb · June 13, 2011

Jason,

I think you are looking at Lorenzo's comment the wrong way. Of course fittings fail hozon papers for many reasons relating to quality and authenticity in the same way swords do. What he is saying is that works by livng artists are not considered for papering. Remember the original and main reasons for papering is to confirm quality and authenticity. If the maker is still alive that attribution is not necessary as they can identify their own work.

Ford Hallam · June 13, 2011

Curran,

I don't mean that the design on the tsuba under discussion is elementary or simple but that it is simply not laid out correctly in terms of the essential features of this type of pattern. I think it's also worth noting that the technique on older works, while perhaps not as refined as later work, is never the less still clearly skilful in the sense that they exhibit a notable confidence in their execution.

If I am presented with a similar wave pattern, of certain age, that exhibits a similar sort of regularity in the way the pairs of waves are simply repeats I'd have to reconsider my view but I think you'll inevitably find that the waves are staggered in relation to each other and not, as in this example, lifeless repeats.

It's ok to disagree with me btw, but it saves time to agree with me from the start

regards,

Ford

Curran · June 15, 2011

Who is talking about 'dead artists'?

I am talking about things made past 20, 10, 5 years with Hozon papers and vague attribution.

cabowen · June 15, 2011

I have been told that the NBTHK has gone through a reorganization with many new people added after all the scandals they have had the past few years. There shinsa teams and how they operate has also changed and this may be part of any difference....

gtstcactus · June 16, 2011

Heres a scan of the NBTHK Hozon Origami for the Tsuba which this thread was started about...

If anyone felt would be so kind as to translate it word for word I'd be most greatful!!!!

Henry Wilson · June 17, 2011

Have a go yourself.

http://www.nihontocraft.com/japanese_sw ... se_sword_4

It is designated 古金エ

gtstcactus · June 17, 2011

Here's my effort at translating the Tsuba Origami...... I've been at it for quite a while, I can't seem to find the ones I haven't done.

Could someone pehaps grade my effort :D and help me out with the rest....

Lorenzo · June 17, 2011

Heisei 10+6 = 16 and the last kanji means year.

Year 2004

The part you didn't translate yet is just a list of the techniques displayed by the tsuba, after yamagane you read sukidashibori, kebori and so on.

gtstcactus · June 17, 2011

Lorenzo,

any chance if you can read it you could tell me the words (techniques) displayed by the tsuba? Just in english, i can find the kanji then and match them off...

It might seem pointless to some, but I'd really like to understand the whole paper!

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