Suguha hamons - inferior / boring???

[gtstcactus]

hi folk,

 

A chap had a look at a couple of my swords and said they're ok but they just look like any other sword with one of those suguha hamon..... As if to imply suguha hamons are boring, uninteresting and not worthwhile.... I actually quite like them!

 

Now I realise my swords are not the finest examples in the world..... but what's that about??? Are suguha hamons considered less skillful, inferior or something??? Or have I just encountered someone who perhaps prefers more "flamboyant" hamon

 

I mean I guess you could apply the statement to any sword with a paticular hamon ie that looks like any old sword with a notare hamon......

 

 

Jas

[Jim P]

Hi Jason, I think a lot of people would laugh at comments like that, find people that know a bit more to converse with

[sanjuro]

A comment such as your friend made only illustrates how little he knows and appreciates nihonto.

Some of the most valuable and historically important swords have suguha hamon, and some of the earlliest and most renowned smiths from both the Yamato and Yamashiro traditions produced beautiful blades with this style of hamon. As Jas says, find someone better informed to converse with on the subject of nihonto.

[paulb]

Families have split and friends stopped speaking to each other for many years over this subject. there are those (me included) who have virtually nothing other than Suguha hamon blades. there are others who prefer the flamboutant and active "in your face" of gunome, choji or sudareba. Suguha can be boring, but good suguha has a huge amount of activity in it and much to see. Equally a poor gunome or choji can look contrived and "blousy"

There have been equal arguments about which is better practically and I think again each camp has equal following.

In support of good suguha just look at the work of the major koto schools and see how many beautiful top rated blades are suguha or suguha based.

[gtstcactus]

Thanks for the replies.....

 

He did say it does take great skill to create a good straight suguha, I guess it must just be that he prefers the more flamboyant hamon styles.... The sword he was referring to is pictured in my wakizashi thread in the nihonto forum....

 

I like them, and will continue to get them if such a hamon is part of something that appeals to me...

 

 

regards

Jas

[cabowen]

As with any hamon, some are well done and some are not.

 

I have been told on many occasions by swordsmiths that suguha is the easiest hamon to do and the most difficult hamon to do well. We have all seen a boring, featureless suguha that holds one's interest for all of 10 seconds....Then there are those that, like a good tea bowl, contain the universe.

 

Most utilitarian blades, i.e., kazuuchi mono of the 16th century, WWII era, etc., done in suguha, were made as weapons in a mass production like fashion. They were made with very little to no concern over whether or not the hamon would enthrall and entertain the owner. They were made for one purpose in the most expedient way possible at the time. As a result, most are done in rather featureless, boring, suguha.

 

As others have pointed out, there are classical masterpieces done in suguha as well. One can not get an appreciation for the beautiful suguba in these from pictures, only when one examines them in hand is it possible to see all the subtle activities which are lacking in lessor work.

[Clive Sinclaire]

Hi Jas

I agree with most of the preceeding comments and as an appreciator of Hizen-to, it will come as no surprise to learn that I like good suguha very much. They present a clean and beautiful appearance on a well shaped blade and I was once told in Japan, that suguha are the hamon of the true conniseur! It is often said that they are generally the most efficient cutting edge, ie they are the sharpest.

What's not to like ?

Clive Sinclaire

[nagamaki - Franco]

Then there are those that, like a good tea bowl, contain the universe.

 

 

SHHHHHHhhhhhh!

[gtstcactus]

A comment such as your friend made only illustrates how little he knows and appreciates nihonto.

Some of the most valuable and historically important swords have suguha hamon, and some of the earlliest and most renowned smiths from both the Yamato and Yamashiro traditions produced beautiful blades with this style of hamon. As Jas says, find someone better informed to converse with on the subject of nihonto.

 

 

Hi Keith,

 

The guy is a fellow collector / nihonto enthusiast..... I met him at a militaria auction..... I guess it's a free world and people are entitled to there opinions..... We don't have to agree with them tho! I really do like the suguha hamon!

[drbvac]

Some like the impressionists, some like the realists, some like modern, some appreciate the masters - it is only because of the varying tastes in art and artists as well as those that appreciate same that there are the variations in the first place. As it is all personal preference there are no right and wrong or better or best - personal preference - it gets even more complicated with women.

 

I like them all but Suguha is still one of the favourites - simplicity and elegance - simple is often very complicated to do well,

[David Flynn]

Great Topic. I am one in the camp of the other. Saying that, I do have an appreciation for good Suguha, it's just not my favourite. I agree with other comments that, like most suguha, some gunome, Choji etc. may at first site look attractive, but doesn't have any real substance (hataraki).

[reinhard]

As with any hamon, some are well done and some are not.

 

That's about all there is to say..

 

The outline of a Hamon says nothing about its quality. Appreciating Hamon is not about liking or disliking certain patterns.

 

However this is something you won't learn from books.

 

reinhard

[paulb]

I am not sure if anyone has noticed but on several threads recently the comment has been made by different people that a particular trait is something that can only be seen and understood by looking at pieces in hand, or "it isnt something you can learn in books".

This might appear to be a contradiction of the other much quoted mantra targeted at beginners about buying books not swords when you start out.

I dont think anyone disputes the benefit of seeing an object in hand whenever possible. We talk about it almost exclusively in relation to swords and fittings but it is true of any art form. Given the opportunity I think all would prefer to do it. However as has been said before not all have the opportunity or take the opportunity to travel to Japan to see such work. As a result they have to view what is available to them and yes study images whether that is oshigata, photographs or screen images. I fully accept that this is a long way second best but I hope, otherwise I have wasted a lot of years, that with effort one can obtain at least some level of understanding from published work.

I am afraid we appear to be getting in to the habit of terminating discussions with the suggestion that the only way one can understand a detailed point is to examine pieces in hand. While I agree it is preferable I do not believe it is exclusive and much can be learned by studying available literature.

[cabowen]

Books and images can only take you so far. They can give you the terminology but not necessarily the correct understanding of said terminology. Swords are three dimensional and there are many details that can not be captured well in two dimensions. Many features and distinctions are very subtle. There are nuances that requires in hand, tactile experience. In addition, assuming you are reading in English, there are translation issues that can interfere. There are not always direct translations that cloud and muddle meaning.

 

For example, the color of the steel, the quality of the nie, strength of the forging, the balance of the blade, the color and texture of the patina on the nakago, etc., are all lost or not captured with photography as they are with the eyes in hand.....

 

Try learning a language solely from books and tapes versus through immersion among native speakers. There are nuances, etc., that you simply can not learn unless you have active feedback and context.

 

Again, books are the starting point-they will get you to the airport, not your destination.....

[paulb]

Hi Chris,

I agree with you totally there is no substitute for seeing swords in hand to understand the finer points often mentioned in descriptions of good blades. In fact I am not really disagreeing with anything.

I would just hate us to get in the habit of dismissing a topic or discussion with the "you have to see it in hand" answer. (not suggesting anyone is or has done that as yet). There is no response possible to that point of view and everyone should agree. However it shouldnt stop us trying to explain and develop understanding with what material is available to us. If we do that then those who are desperate to learn but are unable to travel to source will quickly become disenchanted.

Having spent 30 years travelling around the pacific rim on business I think my long haul flying days are pretty much behind me. I would hate to think that my ability to advance my understanding of the subject and its finer detail will cease because I can no longer visit Japan.

[gtstcactus]

I guess we've kind of gone off topic here... But you guys (Chris and Paul) have hit the nail on the head in regards to there being no substitute for seeing swords in hands, whilst books are invaluble learning tools somethings can simply not be seen in pictures. Having said that even having a sword in hand may not be incredibly benificial if the holder doesn't really know what they are looking at / for. I guess thats when having someone more knowledgeable around would be helpul (such as at a show).

 

In looking at drawn images of various features in books recommended by members I'm still not sure I know what I'm looking for when you go to looking at an actual blade. Utsuri is something I'm not sure I recognise yet, I know it in images but looking at a blade it's not so clear (perhaps I need better blades to look at). There are others too as I'm still learning and the learning curve is steep.

 

For me I learn best when shown things.... Some learn best from books, others from listening.....

[Jamie]

When I began studying I was definitely had a preference for more flamboyant Hamon.

Until I saw a Ko Mihara, with an absolutely stunning suguha. Understated is the word I'd use. It was exquisite. I'll probably never forget looking at that blade.

[Justin]

Good thread guys. I think the appreciation of suguha hamon occurs when our collecting habits mature. Suguha feels more grown up. Of course this depends on quality and the amount of activity in the hamon. I have seen some beautiful suguha recently that blew me away (thanks again Paul ).

[paulb]

my pleasure Justin

[mizuta]

I have a polished by Mishina san and papered by NTHK katana by EDO Mizuta KUNISHIGE and it is Suguha and far from boring!

Regards

Bernard

[Ted Tenold]

I'm glad to see this thread progressed in a constructive manner and Suguha has been vindicated.

 

However, I would like to add that suguha in itself is not really the issue, nor is any other hamon. The study of Nihonto is first and foremost a study of steel. Quality steel is what supports an appreciable hamon of any shape. The quality and beauty of the hamon (brightness, continuity, depth, deki, consistancy, hataraki) all are supported by the steel.

 

Looking at some of the famous schools and makers will demonstrate that the shape of hamon is fundamentally less important than their reputation for quality jigane such as Awataguchi, Rai, Shizu, Tadayoshi, Kunihiro, etc.

 

I guess the point I'm getting at is that if you see a wonderful hamon of any shape, you should really pay very close attention to the jigane (and hagane) that support it.

[paulb]

Thank you Ted, it is always worth remembering that the pieces that have the greatest impact are those where the elements and features work together to create a greater whole. I totally agree with your comments regarding hada, I enjoy Suguha more than other patterns, however the suguha hamon I enjoy mostly appear on Awataguchi, Rai, Enju and Aoe pieces all of which have a reputation for beautiful jigane. As you say I do not believe you can achieve a beautful hamon unless the jigane is of a quality to support it.

Likewise the importance of shape is often overlooked. We sometimes tend to view shape as a means of establishing age but neglect its importance in the overall appearance and aesthetic. I think it was Walter Compton who said you never see a good sword with a bad shape. No matter how the other elements come together if the shape doesnt hold the thing together it will look wrong.

I have put an example of an Awatuguchi blade below (with thanks to Andy Quirt for the image) which I think demonstrates this very well.

[gtstcactus]

Well this has turned out to be a constructive thread, I nearly began thinking my like for suguha was misplaced, but now I feel much better about my suguha being among my favouites

Even better a thread I started hasn't been hijacked and turned into a S**t fight!!!

[Jean]

I remember this sword very well Paul. It was Juto and if I remember well the price was about 100k$.

 

http://www.nihonto.us/Awataguchi%20Kuniyasu.htm

 

Between a Nagamitsu and such a blade, for the same price I'll go for the Awataguchi, their existing daito are as many as hair on my head.

[paulb]

Hi Jean,

Yes Sir I still dream about this one. The nearest I got to it was asking Andy if I could have a photograph

If I had to have just one blade I think it would have to be an Awataguchi piece. I think the blade above is fantastic but the one I liked the most was one which was in a Christies sale in 2008. As far as I remember it didnt make reserve but I dont think it was ever re-offered. It was a Tokubetsu Juyo piece and was something very special.

We can always dream!!

[Pete Klein]

Jean -- I had the opportunity to hold that sword in hand feeling guilty that I didn't have the eye to 'really' appreciate it but still immediately realizing that it was magnificent. The other one I loved (and I really mean that) was the Ko Bizen Tomasa (http://ginzaseikodo.com/swords.html) which was amazing also. I really need to find a seven figure income profession...

[Jean]

Pete,

 

Don't be too greedy a six figures would be fine for me

[Pete Klein]

LOL -- well, one does require a proper villa on Lake Biwa for such things after all...