Nanban tsuba from India

[Jim P]

Hi All, I was looking at Fred's page, http://www.swordsandtsuba.com/tsuba/premiumtsuba.html and was wondering how do you tell

a India Nanban tsuba from one made in Japan. I would have picked them as Japanese and not Nanban are they called Nanban because of the India tag ? as the themes don't look Nanban thanks

PS can some of you see two dragons. in Item No. T307 because I am finding it hard to see it

[george trotter]

Jim,

pretty sure he meant to say "dragonflies".

my limited knowledge of namban objects refers to the metal that came from outside of Japan used to make swords...usually from India...but more research needs to be done on the supply of namban tetsu.

the namban in tsuba refers to the Japanese copying of what they perceived as the namban (foreigners) art styles. usually made in Japan AFAIK.

Geo.

[sanjuro]

Since all but one of the namban tsuba have the same description, its a bit hard to tell. None of them actually depict two dragons. So the descriptions are meaningless.

[Ford Hallam]

The thrid example, the one with dragonflies, is (imo) a Hizen work. Quite a nice example at that.

 

I think the suggestion that these were possibly made in India is simply wild speculation. To my knowledge there exists no comparable work of certain Indian origin that would make such a hypothesis even vaguely likely. Exceptional claims require exceptional proof.

 

The style of inlay is nunome zogan. It's not at all rare and is in fact a defining characteristic of Hizen work. Hizen work does often have a strong foreign ( or Namban) flavour but this example is fairly Japanese in style, to me anyway .

 

Just my opinion, for what it's worth

 

regards,

Ford

 

p.s. I think the other tsuba have simply been miss Labelled.

[Jim P]

Hi George, I also thought that namban refers to the Japanese copying of what they perceived as the (foreigners) art styles and themes, so It had me thinking maybe Indian metal is what he is implying ?

Keith, your observation is right its hard to work out. same descriptions, and it was a first for me to see Tsuba

like that dub d made in India

Ford do you think it maybe the metal that has people thinking this? the work does not show a namban art style per-say not in my opinion which is not much but it is interesting as I would think he would get better prices listing them as Japanese It did have me perplexed. Thanks

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Jim,

 

I can't imagine what would be the reasoning or motivation for claiming the tsuba was of Indian origin but I'd defy anyone to identify the steel's origin simply from it's appearance. On some blades we're told it's imported steel, the actual source is still unknown, but for the most part tsuba don't bear such inscriptions.

 

Funny enough I was explaining to my 9 year old son, today, the critical difference between "possible" and "probable". In my opinion there are too many theories, attributions and assumptions floating around the tosogu world that seem to blurr that distinction.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[ububob]

Believe this is an error on the site. The tsuba currently displayed are not those described. I have sent Fred a heads-up.

[Ford Hallam]

Bob

 

I certainly agree that it's an error but the point is that there is no tsuba that would fit that description. :D

 

cheers,

 

Ford

[Pete Klein]

"Funny enough I was explaining to my 9 year old son, today, the critical difference between "possible" and "probable". In my opinion there are too many theories, attributions and assumptions floating around the tosogu world that seem to blurr that distinction".

 

Oh, Brother -- How Much I agree With You Mon Frere!

[Ed]

  Quote

On some blades we're told it's imported steel, the actual source is still unknown for the most part but tsuba don't bear such inscriptions.

 

Ford,

Not true my friend. I own a tsuba with such an inscription and have seen at least one other.

 

http://yakiba.com/tsuba_Tsuguhide1.htm

[Soshin]

  Ed said:

Ford,

Not true my friend. I own a tsuba with such an inscription and have seen at least one other.

 

http://yakiba.com/tsuba_Tsuguhide1.htm

 

I would agree with Ed those type of inscriptions about what iron was used to make the tsuba are rare but are existent. In the recent Robert E. Haynes book focused on his study collection he provides an example if I remember correctly of such a tsuba. Now if the inscription are really truthful is another story.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Ford Hallam]

Gents, I didn't mean say tsuba with inscriptions indicating namban steel don't exists. I wrote "On some blades we're told it's imported steel, the actual source is still unknown, but for the most part tsuba don't bear such inscriptions. I misplaced the "but", Sorry

 

My point being, none of these inscriptions names India as the source of the steel.

 

Interestingly, I'm not aware of any so called Namban tsuba ( or Hizen for that matter) that have inscriptions claiming the work is in imported steel. Perhaps Doc Lissenden knows of some.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[docliss]

I agree that none of the tsuba on Fred’s page can be labelled as ‘Namban’, and he has clearly got his page mixed up. It is true that some Namban tsuba may have their origin in India, but these are of the auriculate sub-group and, produced by the East India Company, commonly bear the VOC logo. Like Ford, I know of no tsuba that may be confidently labelled as ‘Namban’ that bear a reference to being made of namban tetsu – such tsuba seldom bear any inscription at all. Those tsuba so labelled are commonly ita tsuba of a mokume style. I have attached images of one such example, hoping that its owner does not mind…. John L.

[Ford Hallam]

It all raises an intiguing point for me though. Some of the material I use is not of Japanese origin so ought I to inscribe those tsuba as being of Namban material? and obviously add a premium to the price due to the rarity.

 

John,

 

I have to confess that I havn't read a copy of you book on Namban tsuba so don't know what the evidence is for the auriculate group having been produced by the East India Company, in India. Could you perhaps provide a brief précis?

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Jim P]

Thanks Guys for the clarification, It was one of those moments. Ford you can be the first in modern times to craft Namban tsuba, at a premium of course :D

[docliss]

Dear Ford

 

Ogawa’s redefinition, in 1987, of the Namban group of Japanese sword guards identified three discrete areas of manufacture – China, India and Japan. Tsuba of the auriculate type are frequently found to have a kebori VOC logo on the seppa-dai – an indication of their manufacture by the Dutch East India Company, most probably in India. There is no such evidence of any conventional Namban tsuba having reached Japan by this route; certainly I know of no such tsuba bearing the VOC logo apart from as a decorative motif. That is not to say, however, that none were made in India.

 

As to your question about your sources of iron…. I would imagine that any post 1600 iron not sourced from a tatara as pure local iron, or from the Manchurian railway as pure namban iron, will have been recycled innumerable times, and will almost certainly contain a proportion of foreign iron. What proportion of such iron is considered necessary in order to acquire the label of ‘namban iron’ is anybody’s guess, I suppose.

 

John L.

[Ford Hallam]

Hello John,

 

Thanks for that additional info. I'm assuming then that this is essentially speculation on Ogawa's part and that no concrete evidence actually exists other than the engraved VOC mark.

 

I'd suggest that it could equally have been the case that these types of guard were commissioned by VOC officers from local Japanese artisans as gifts to Japanese officials. Occam's razor...anyone?

 

I just don't see any convincing evidence in the pieces themselves that indicates foreign metalwork technique and workmanship. Looking at 17th cent. Indian arms and armour doesn't suggest design influence as seen in these auriculate guards.