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My new Yokohagi Ni Mai Dou Gusoku

Justin Grant
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Justin Grant Experienced

Justin Grant

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I have posted bits and pieces of armor I have purchased over the years, and none of it "complete" armor.

 

Last week Eric (Estcrh) posted a link to an eBay auction from Toraba (Trevor Absolon). It was for a complete late Edo Yokohagi Ni Mai Dou Gusoku.

 

Sunday, I looked at the auction and there was no activity, and with 15 minutes left I tossed out a ridiculously small bid and to my surprise I won! I had to check it several times, and could not believe I won. Trevor was not the happiest of campers and understandably so. Since I know Trevor, I offered to let him keep it and relist the armor, since I know he paid more for it than the winning auction bid, but Trevor was very stand-up and said a deal is a deal and insisted I won it.

 

This is my first complete set of armor, top to bottom, and it looks to be in great shape. I have posed his pictures of the armor, and it should be here in a week.

 

Now, I have to figure out how to get it in the house and displayed and act like it has always been there before the bride finds out.. She will have a stroke. I have, as she put it, turned the formal sitting room into the Shogun's armory with all of the bits I have collected. I am sure this will put her over the top!

 

More Photos : https://picasaweb.google.com/1040542998 ... directlink

 

Thank you,

 

Justin

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Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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Justin, congratulations. :clap:

 

My wife (used to be a bride once upon a blue moon) now understands that it guards the house. Potential burglars see this shape in the darkness... (oh, and mirrors are good too!)

 

Plus, tell her it is an investment which cannot go wrong! 8)

Justin Grant Experienced

Justin Grant

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Thanks all-

 

I am happy with it. I am trying to find out what the meadate represents and what the tori or birds on the zunari represent.

 

I have been looking online but no informaiton yet.

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Justin Grant Experienced

Justin Grant

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Trevor, as many of you know, is not big on placing family names to Kamon or Meadate, it, in his opinion, adds an underserved "value" to something if the provenance is not 100% verified.

 

Piers, I am replying to your post before I read into the links. I appreciate the help. Now I will go study!

Guido Grand Master

Guido

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Trevor, as many of you know, is not big on placing family names to Kamon or Meadate, it, in his opinion, adds an underserved "value" to something if the provenance is not 100% verified.
I applaud him for that since it's the only sensible approach.
Justin Grant Experienced

Justin Grant

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...and...

天の字崩しTen no Ji Kuzushi

 

http://kamon.37gi.com/products/detail.p ... t_id=10062

 

Wow, I need some help with this one. Ten= Sky, Heaven, Providence, Fate. Ji= Character, Letter, Handwriting. Kuzushi= Level, Pull Down, Demolish, Breaking

 

Break Character of the Sky or Heavens?

 

Guido Schiller :

 

I agree it is the proper way to sell something, on the face of it and not the unspoken association. He won't even hazard a guess, at least publically, for fear it will place an association.

Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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Maedate are completely interchangeable so it is unlikely that the one on there has any association with your armor/armour, Justin. Dealers swap them around to find one that looks good. All your research on the Maedate will tell you is solely the meaning of the Maedate itself, if you are lucky.

 

Your Maedate is the character for Heaven. 天　This might be a lucky word which one family liked. The character will have been written many different ways, one of which is this, your Kuzushi or 'stylized' character.

 

So directly translated 天の字（崩し）　simply means "The character for Heaven expressed with poetic licence". This does not mean you can continue to exercise poetic licence. The name points to one Kamon. If you wanted to change or develop it, that would require a new fixed name for your new creation.

Justin Grant Experienced

Justin Grant

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Maedate are completely interchangeable so it is unlikely that the one on there has any association with your armor/armour, Justin. Dealers swap them around to find one that looks good. All your research on the Maedate will tell you is solely the meaning of the Maedate itself, if you are lucky.

 

Your Maedate is the character for Heaven. 天　This might be a lucky word which one family liked. The character will have been written many different ways, one of which is this, your Kuzushi or 'stylized' character.

 

So directly translated 天の字（崩し）　simply means "The character for Heaven expressed with poetic licence". This does not mean you can continue to exercise poetic licence. The name points to one Kamon. If you wanted to change or develop it, that would require a new fixed name for your new creation.

 

Thank you so very much. I realize that the meadate are interchangeable and not a good reference and one of the reasons Trevor would not discuss. It will help me answer the question(s) I will receive from the wife and kids, along with visitors asking "what does that mean".

 

I think the more reliable item to chase down is the birds. This is more than likely a more definite clue to the clan, not always, but a better clue. This was suggested to be a okashi gusoku, and if so, would the kamon be a better clue, and if this is indeed a late Edo set, the chances these were added later are somewhat diminished. Any clues or suggestions will be appreciated and researched. I did order a book, and hope it will aid my research.

 

Thanks

 

Justin

Justin Grant Experienced

Justin Grant

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Thank you. Is it possible this armor is associated with the Koriki Clan? The clan is to have fallen out of favor in the late 1660's to a 3000 koku hatamoto, so not sure this family would have afforded an army at this point so why the armor? Maybe an older set than I thought or a set for the later hatamoto clan? I think Trevor listed this as late Edo (1750-1850) so a bit confused.

 

Thanks,

 

Justin

Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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Armor/armour was often passed down and recycled.

 

There are pointers for telling the probable age of manufacture, which include knowledge of popular styles, evidence of usage, etc. Helmets are a specialized sub area.

 

As we on this site study the qualities of sword steel, so people like Sasama Sensei and Ian B. Sensei became members of study groups in order to prise/prize out such arcane secrets. :bowdown:

IanB Veteran

IanB

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Justin, You seem convinced your new armour is an okashi gusoku - I don't think it is. Consider the following:

1. The fabrics, a printed cloth imitating shobu gawa, indicate that the dou, kote and haidate belong together. The cloth on the suneate is the same pattern but different. This is not surprising since these get wet regularly as well as splashed with mud and may well have had to have had the fabric renewed during the armour's working life.

2. The brown leather edging, ko sakura gawa, is the same on the kote, dou, haidate, suneate, and sode. So they all match.

3. The kote have tekko and sode bukuro at the top. How many okashi gusoku have those features, particularly the latter.

4. The haidate has ornamental pipings around the leathers - again an extra feature you don't get on very cheap armour.

5. Although it is not certain, there is no reason to think the helmet and hanpo don't belong as well.

Now, on okashi gusoku they almost invariably used plain blue hemp fabrics. They were usually edged with braid not leather. They didn't normally do proper kikko but simply used fabric. Okashi gusoku rarely had suneate and when they did, they didn't fit kikko knee guards. The inside of okashi dou are invariable lined with hemp cloth glued on to the metal and lacquered. this has a proper lacquered leather lining. Finally, most okashi gusoku used hemp braid not silk.

So, whilst it is not a 'best quality armour', it isn't a cheap issued one either. Although the two birds are not in a circle as in the Koriki kamon, it is possible the armour belonged to somebody related to that group. Or maybe not - who now knows.

Ian B

Justin Grant Experienced

Justin Grant

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Hi Ian-

 

I am tossing out all options in an effort to hazard a guess at this one, but I have adopted your stance as my own. I have parts of "okashi" and "ashigaru" armor and it is less ornate and with less attention to detail. I am just struggling with the thought of a hatamoto having armor like this, but you are right, I need to keep an open mind and keep looking, I may never find the destination, but that is most of the fun.

 

Another clue is the hitsu, this is inscribed, anyone able to read it?

 

Thanks!

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estcrh Veteran

estcrh

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Justin, you got a very good deal on a nice armor and I think Ian's assessment is correct, certain embellishments were more likely to be seen on a samurai retainers armor then on an ashigaru type of armor.

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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