Mei translation into English needed for Kozuka blade&handle

[bomulder]

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/p ... directlink

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/M ... directlink

 

A friend that reads some Japanese says the blade first three characters are a name, Inoue Hisashi and the last character is Sadao (also a first name?)

 

My friend also translates the handle inscription as "kô onna dai" or kô chi dai". The first would literally mean "(great) work of a woman" or "work of a (great) woman".

The second one doesn't make sense to him. One character he identifies as "guarantee" or "insurance". It could be someone's name or poetic name or a seal of some kind.

 

Can anybody here confirm the above information or provide additional information to help properly identify this Kozuka?

 

Any help be much appreciated. Thank you!

 

Helping a family member.

 

Bo

[Markus]

The signature on the blade reads:

 

Inoue Izumi no Kami Kunisada - 井上和泉守国貞

 

And on the kozuka:

 

Gotô Mitsuyasu + kaô - 後藤光保

[bomulder]

Thank you Markus

 

For clarification: The two Mei are both on the Kozuka. One on the blade facing out when insered in the Saya and one on the handle (the handle side facing the side of the Saya of a Wakizashi). Is this normal?

 

Am I correct in thinking this maybe early Edo period (1600's) versus late Edo (1800's)?

 

 

The signature on the blade reads:

 

Inoue Izumi no Kami Kunisada - 井上和泉守国貞

 

And on the kozuka:

 

Gotô Mitsuyasu + kaô - 後藤光保

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Bo,

The handle is kotsuka (small tsuka) and the blade is kogatana (small katana). The blades are often signed with the name of a famous swordsmith (like Kunisada), but these are usually not correct signatures of the smith. This isn't necessarily an attempt at forgery; just the style to sign with a famous name. The date for Kunisada is 1624 or so, and for Goto Mitsuyasu, the 19th century.

Unless the signature of Kunisada can be authenticated it likely won't be possible to date the blade. As for the signature on the handle, any signature of Goto anyone needs to be examined carefully. The Goto were so important that many forgeries exist (and in this case if it is wrong it would be an out and out forgery, not just the style to sign something important). If we could see a picture of the front of the handle someone might be able to tell you more.

Grey

[bomulder]

Hi Bo,

The handle is kotsuka (small tsuka) and the blade is kogatana (small katana). The blades are often signed with the name of a famous swordsmith (like Kunisada), but these are usually not correct signatures of the smith. This isn't necessarily an attempt at forgery; just the style to sign with a famous name. The date for Kunisada is 1624 or so, and for Goto Mitsuyasu, the 19th century.

Unless the signature of Kunisada can be authenticated it likely won't be possible to date the blade. As for the signature on the handle, any signature of Goto anyone needs to be examined carefully. The Goto were so important that many forgeries exist (and in this case if it is wrong it would be an out and out forgery, not just the style to sign something important). If we could see a picture of the front of the handle someone might be able to tell you more.

Grey

 

Thank you Grey.

 

As you asked I uploaded 2 more pictures of the full blade and it's handle next to a tape measure for size indication in US inches, and showing both sides of the handle. The blade mei is on the decorative handle side, while the handle inscription is on the opposite inside towards the scabbard.

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/1003972495 ... 9991656178

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/1003972495 ... 4753651826

[Grey Doffin]

Bo,

We need to see a closeup of the work on the kotsuka, the side without the signature.

Grey

[bomulder]

Sorry I misunderstood first, but here is a close up of the kotsuka. I find it absolutely beautiful in detail and craftmanship. Some of the details, like the beats in the gold flower buds, I did not see till I saw the pictures blown up.

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/1003972495 ... 0368326146

[k morita]

Hi,

Maybe,this tree is a loquat of the fruit.

[bomulder]

Hi,

Maybe,this tree is a loquat of the fruit.

 

The leaves certainly look like that of the Eriobotrya japonica. Is there historical significance to this exotic fruit in the Japanese culture? Is this design an indicator to the swordsmith or certain time period?

 

Thank you all for your input so far.

 

Bo

[Curran]

Hmmm. Nice workmanship.

With fittings, largely due to the late 1800s demand from Europe.... signatures were often forged. An old truth is that for some smiths or artisans, 1 out of 10 signatures are legit. An older joke is most people believe 11 out of 10 are legit.

 

The name isn't that big, but is Goto school which was a popular target for false signature copies. I will open the Goto books tomorrow and try to verify the signature. As a former biologist, I must say it is pretty and appeals to me though I don't collect kozuka (or as Grey more accurately names them, ko-tsuka).

[bomulder]

Thank you so very much for your help Curran.

 

I have become very appreciative in the last week of learning what I can about Japanese swords from sources as here @ Nihonto. It started by accident. Our car was going to be in the garage for service and we had to borrow my girlfriend's fathers car for a few days. Upon returning it we decided to clean the trunk of the car for him which was full of his golf gear and other miscellanea. The car had a huge trunk and while crawling in the back my girlfriend found this knife stuck in behind the back seat. She showed it to me and neither knowing anything about Japanese knives. But, we are both big fans of the old Samurai culture since Tom Cruise's movie. I saw the inscription on the "pocket knife" and decided to ask her dad to allow me to do some research on it. He told me it was given to him by his late brother and supposedly came from Japan. He had forgotten about it being in the trunk with the golf clubs and knew not more about it. Being an enthusiastic photographer with skills in close-up and product lighting, I wanted to have some good pictures. After wiping the blade with a cloth the small inscription on the handle came to light. I posted the mei on my facebook and a friend helped me with the initial interpetation, although he knows little on swords. Through Googling I found this great message board and have been reading up on much of the great information available here.

 

I'm not a sword collector, although I'm totally fascinated with all what I'm learning. The blade belongs to my future Father-in-law and I'm just helping him on more identification and possible appraisal. He just wants to keep it as a memory of his brother unless it ends up being worth a Cristie's auction item....LOL. Researching this blade has provided a huge education and appreciation from me on all the small nuances in Japanese culture and swordsmith craftmanship. I guess that is what this is all about, the appreciation of something simple as a little knife for what it can represent from the past and record for the present and future.

 

Anyway, for those that are contacting me and trying to sell me their "private" collection of swords, I'm not interested. I'm only interested in finding out more about this blade we found. That's all! In the meantime I'm enjoying the education on Japanese swords and a growing appreciation of the workmanship of this knife :D. It looks authentic, but I will not be disappointed if it turns out to be fake, modified or worthless. I have no financial investment in it, just education time and that is not a loss but a gain to me.

 

Bo

[Brian]

Bo,

Your kozuka/kogatana is certainly not worthless nor fake. It is what it seems to be, a nice kogatana and kozuka of the type often mounted with swords as a utility knife or to complete a koshirae. This one is above average workmanship, but not "Christies" quality and is likely worth a few hundred bucks. The mei on the blade and on the kozuka were very often faked (gimei) and unless you have papers to prove otherwise, are usually considered gimei unless the work is mindblowing. While decent, I don't think this is top level, but it is worth checking out. It's a nice set, the kogatana looks forged and the kozuka decent quality. As is..worth maybe $400 or $500 at a guess.

 

Regards,

Brian

 

PS - Any unsolicited offers to sell swords should be treated as a scam or con. There are many (such as Pawel Nowak) that send offers to every new member of every forum. Ignore them unless the member can be verified, or you will lose your money.

[bomulder]

Thank you Brian! Also thank you for this great message board. I have learned so much by reading the information available here. It is mind blowing and super fascinating to us (me and my girlfriend). We love learning so much more on this aspect of Samurai-related history. We are also getting help from a long-time friend that is knowledgeable on Japanese swords (he teaches Japanese sword fighting) and is asking his local friend that has a recognized record for identification and authentication of Edo period swords. I will share more here when I get more information from him. I'm sure it will be interesting.

 

Meantime, any additional information from you guys here is much appreciated. Hopefully others can appreciate this journey as well.

 

Bo

[Curran]

Bo-,

 

First take what Brian says as from very high authority. He does a good job of keeping this rather significant forum in line. If people are contacting you to sell you their treasure troves, just ignore. If the infamous Pawel has contacted you, consider yourself officially initiated into the website. I think I am one of very few people he hasn't hit up over the years. Maybe he did long long ago, or maybe I predate him. He is a persistent bug that penicillin won't cure.

 

As for Nihonto, well Neo.... which will it be... the red or blue pill?

This hobby goes incredibly deep and largely in a foreign language with a distinctly foreign mindset.

 

Now: Goto Mitsuyasu + kao (maker's mark)

First step is to take the short-cut and pull out the 3vol Haynes Index (invaluable) rather than open the Goto Tomes. I've never been good with them anyway.

Haynes. Think of Goto as a very big tree. Lots of branches. I only commit the mainline to memory, as not enough grey cells remain for all the branches.

 

Lesson 1: When Goto school, standard fittings reading of 'Mitsuyasu' often gets read another way. In this instance.... three other ways.

Haynes says to see BENJO (H00172), JOREN (H02171), JOREN (H02172), and KAKUJO (H02395).

 

Off we go to track down these 4 candidates.

Benjo:

[bomulder]

Thank you so much, Curran, for taking your valuable time and knowledge to help identify the Goto.

 

I now feel initiated here as I was solicited by "you-know-who" and forwarded the spam to Brian.

 

With each turn this is getting more interesting and more complex, just like an old tree, and apparently a loquat fruit tree .

 

Again, thank you all

 

Bo

[Curran]

Got interrupted at home here.

Goto is a complex school requiring lots of understanding and still remains largely beyond me.

 

Still, trying to help here. Essentially I am writing as I tick off what information you've provided against the resources I have. Don't build it up as the answer may be anticlimactic but, given that Mitsuyasu isn't a big name in any of the 4 choices, it is less likely to be a forged signature. Just a lessor know artisan.

 

Benjo: 1795-1852 grandson of the 5th gen Hanzaemon Goto line.

No ref. signature in Wakayama. Haynes has some hand-drawns of Benjo's various Kao. No exact match to yours. One is close.

Joren: 1627-1657 second son of Joen. Died young and his work is rare.

Joren#2: d.1737 possibly illegit son of Goto Renjo. Some book debate if he used the name Mitsuyasu, or is confused with Joren#1.

Kakujo: d.1810 son of Zenjo, 6th master of the Rihei line. Ref. sig in Wakayama and also supposedly one in the Haynes Catalogs.

 

Given the crisp later Edo (c.1800s) feel of the kozuka, I would bet more on Benjo or Kakujo.

Sorry to drag this out, but I will get out the Wakayama 3vol. set tomorrow and check the Kakujo ref. signature for a match. Family time now.

[nagamaki - Franco]

FYI, http://www.choshuya.co.jp/sale/tousougu/197/index.htm

[Curran]

Survey Says:

 

KAKUJO! Second stringer of the Goto family, but looks quite capable and garners enough respect to be in Wakayama. If you can stand the North American analogy, it is the equivalent of someone who made it to the major leagues with a decent team, though relatively out of the spotlight.

 

The mei is a bit thin for his reference examples and the one Franco linked too, but the strokes are pretty good at first glance from the angled photo you provided. There is at least one stroke in the mei that I cannot see in your photo that I would like to see. Are you able to produce a straight up photo of the kozuka mei of similar quality to the one in your first post?

 

If it checks out, I or someone else here can post the Haynes Index entry in its entirety.

Then if necessary we can debate its current relative value. Franco posted a very nice example from many years back on Choshuya, but Choshuya is like Bloomingdales where the asking price is X, actual sale price is Y, and third party resale value is Z. Still, I like the three examples of his work I have seen so far. Has that distinct late Edo Goto crispness.

[bomulder]

This is exciting! I hope the additional macro pictures with different lighting angles will provide better identification and closer authentication. Thank you Curran and Franco!

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/1003972495 ... 7707134722

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/1003972495 ... 3116179906

 

Let me know if you need more.

 

Bo

 

Survey Says:

 

KAKUJO! Second stringer of the Goto family, but looks quite capable and garners enough respect to be in Wakayama. If you can stand the North American analogy, it is the equivalent of someone who made it to the major leagues with a decent team, though relatively out of the spotlight.

 

The mei is a bit thin for his reference examples and the one Franco linked too, but the strokes are pretty good at first glance from the angled photo you provided. There is at least one stroke in the mei that I cannot see in your photo that I would like to see. Are you able to produce a straight up photo of the kozuka mei of similar quality to the one in your first post?

 

If it checks out, I or someone else here can post the Haynes Index entry in its entirety.

Then if necessary we can debate its current relative value. Franco posted a very nice example from many years back on Choshuya, but Choshuya is like Bloomingdales where the asking price is X, actual sale price is Y, and third party resale value is Z. Still, I like the three examples of his work I have seen so far. Has that distinct late Edo Goto crispness.

[nagamaki - Franco]

better identification and closer authentication

 

Authentication comes from submitting pieces to a shinsa. The workmanship looks promising on this piece, something to study and enjoy. As with swords, it's the work that confirms the mei and not the other way around.

[reinhard]

This looks like a nice and quite typical Waki Goto-style kozuka in pretty good condition. (BTW Christies offered many kodogu of much lesser quality in the past, Brian).

Like Franco said: Safe attribution to KAKUJO cannot be done by consulting a reference book or two. Workmanship is as important as the mei. Therefore the kozuka should be shown to someone familiar with the work of KAKUJO. - Take your time. Your precious looks worthwhile.

 

However I do share some doubts with Curran as far as the mei is concerned.

 

reinhard

[Curran]

Reinhard,

 

Thanks for doing that side by side comparison.

With a surprising grinding noise, the scanner announced it had decided today was a good day to die. I couldn't scan in a reference mei.

 

Yes, I thought the signature looked good from the slanted first photo seeing it from a laptop.

I did note one stroke missing I expected to see. Hence I asked for the picture.

There is some variation in the 3 examples in Wakayama, but I am seeing considerably more variation with Bo's new image. At least another stroke is missing that really should be there in any variation of the mei.

 

Not quite ready to declare it gimei until looking at Wakayama more. Franco's post was helpful as a 4th reference point.

Definitely a turn for the worse on the legit vs non-legit.

A shame, as it is a pretty piece with workmanship good enough to merit attention.

____________________________________________________

 

The irony is that many feel Christies is a good place for dumping gimei because so many unwitting buyers trust them to vet things.

They get their 26% and the legalese protects them very well.

[Curran]

Hmm.... got more interesting.

I now have 6 authority deemed 'authentic' mei, including the Choshuya one that Franco linked.

 

Of the 6, they break down into 2 sets. One set has some of the variations seen in that of Bo's kozuka. The other set (Choshuya one and 2 from Wakayama) are more the format that Reinhard used as comparison.

 

On fittings mei, I will stick my neck out and say if something is probably legit in the eyes of the authorities. _Reinhard_ : this is to say I feel I can accurately reflect the published opinions and those that come out of shinsa. This is NOT to say that my own opinion is some holy word.

But with this kozuka, I reserve opinion. Workmanship is good and mei relatively matches one of the styles. One of the missing strokes I was redflagging is repeat in one of the subsets I would draw.

 

This doesn't explain a missing stroke found in all 6 reference mei, or explain a slight weakness to the signature on Bo's. But if it is gimei (false signature), it is a pretty darn good one.

 

So as Reinhard said.... if you want a formal opinion, then this is a good one for shinsa. As a professional gambler of sorts, I'd give this one a 35% chance of passing. Given the expense of shinsa, I don't know if the risk to reward makes financial sense. However, I personally might do it out of curiosity. Last time I was this uncertain on a signature, the shinsa team papered it... and it was a nice Nobuiye.

[bomulder]

Again. Thank you so much for sharing your time and opinions.

 

Thank you Curran for going through your references to identify the mei of Kakugo.

 

Thank you Reinhard for doing the side-by-side so that even I as a novice can see the differences and see the missing stroke Curran is talking about.

 

Thank you Franco for pointing out that the craftsmanship does need to be evaluated by an expert besides the authenticity of the mei.

 

Just for myself my signature has drastically changed and differed over the years, just by looking at past expired driver's licenses (as well as the ID picture...LOL). The novice question I have is: If one wanted to fake the mei, why would one choose a "major league player that had no fame"?

 

Also, how much money are we talking about if you get a shinsa, and how would you go about such?

 

Sorry if I appear clueless, for I am. I'm learning as we speak .

 

Bo

[bomulder]

OK. So I found some shinsa information on the website for the Tampa show in 1012. Being on the west coast, I would prefer something more local. Only show I find is the San Francisco Token Kai in August, but no shinsa information. Is shinsa available in SF at this show, or are there local LA events that offer shinsa?

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Bo,

There is a shinsa this October in Minneapolis. Chris Bowen, a member here, runs the show with Larry Klahn (another member) and I believe Chris has mentioned a shinsa by mail service.

Grey

[bomulder]

Thanks Grey. Nice to know that shinsa by mail is available.

 

If at all possible I would like to keep it local and meet those that provide the input.

 

Anybody here members of (or know about) LA's Nanka Token Kai or Nihon Token Hozon Kai groups? Do they allow non-members at their monthly meetings? I think it be nice if locals can appreciate seeing what I have, and I can get some education.

 

Bo

 

Hi Bo,

There is a shinsa this October in Minneapolis. Chris Bowen, a member here, runs the show with Larry Klahn (another member) and I believe Chris has mentioned a shinsa by mail service.

Grey

[cabowen]

Thanks Grey for providing the info about the shinsa....

 

As Grey has said, we are conducting a shinsa in October in Minneapolis with one of the top Japanese shinsa teams. We are offering to submit items for people who can't attend. You can see the link below and/or contact me privately for more information.

 

Nothing wrong with "keeping it local" and to get more input, but if you wish to have an expert opinion, shinsa is the answer....

[bomulder]

Thank you to Chris for having the shinsa and explaining the process on your website. My consideration is dependent on advise from local experts I have contacted. I will post as more develops in the journey.

 

As always, THANK YOU to all that posted on this.

 

Bo