sanjuro Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 Although mine is far from an expert opinion, I too would like to see the mei. The impression I get from this sword as presented so far is that it is perhaps of the school in question but not of any of the smiths in question, nor perhaps of the period. In which case it is gimei. It has a horimono that is representative of, but not apparently the quality of the extant examples of this school, and could for whatever reason have been added at a later date. In all of this I could be in error, but that is how I see it at the moment. Not a criticism..... merely an observation. It is all too true that 'The signature confirms the sword', and a closeup of the mei will be a great help in making some final determination that it is gimei (as I currently suspect it may prove to be) or not.
NihontoEurope Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Posted May 19, 2011 Here comes the MEI: Thanks for all comments! I hope that a "confirming MEI" can be presented. /Martin
Jacques D. Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 Hi, A kinzogan mei is not an original one, everybody can do it.
sanjuro Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 Just posing a question here, and not attempting to prove any particular point: Kinzogan mei of course can be added by anyone at any time. Does this kinzogan mei look right? It does not appear to be old to me. Also, of the two characters, the bottom yoshi character looks freehand and more like chisel marks that have been filled with gold. The naga character looks blocky, square ended and the horizontal stroke is dead straight with both ends broad instead of one end pointed. It appears to be not by the same hand as the yoshi character. Possibly in error, I was under the general impression that older chiselled signatures are usually done with a finer running chisel and would be eroded, is this not so? Does this appear odd to anyone else? Edit: Just saw Jacques post. He got in first.
Grey Doffin Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 I think the norm for kinzogan mei is nicely done. This one is clumsy. Therefore, I question its authenticity. Grey
NihontoEurope Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Posted May 19, 2011 I think the norm for kinzogan mei is nicely done. This one is clumsy. Therefore, I question its authenticity.Grey If the signature is made by smith: The smith who made this piece of metal did not add the gold, and he did not know that it would be, when he signed the sword. This is done as an attribute to the sword by someone else. What I need is some signatures from NAGAYOSHI for comparison or a definate answer from someone /Martin
sanjuro Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 Martin. This is a public forum and what has been said so far is based on photographs and the impressions of a number of people. None of those people are members of a formal Shinsa team. A difinitive answer is impossible without the sword in hand. We can speculate and compare like specimens and signatures until the cows come home, and still not supply a concrete answer to the question of authenticity. We can only indicate the probability or otherwise of authenticity. That has already been done, and there are serious questions arising about this blade, not the least of which is the probability of it being gimei. Even so, proof positive or negative still lies with someone who has the knowledge and can examine the sword in person.
pcfarrar Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 The man from Japan...he went Kamikaze on me and dumped a big payload in my in-tray! I'm guessing from this quote that you don't actually own the sword. If so why are you interested in buying a tired, fatally flawed sword like this?
NihontoEurope Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Posted May 19, 2011 pcfarrar, Correct assumtion. I currently do not own any sword with horomino. That is why my interest. In what way do you think it is fatally flawed? /Martin
Jean Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 "Hon'ami Koson one of the better known recent Hon'ami and the teacher of Albert Yamanaka & John Yumoto, was a highly regarded appraiser, particularly for those appraisals done prior to the War. Kinpun-mei, along with kinzogan-mei and shumei are three of five appraisal modalities which are inseparable from the blade. Origami and sayagaki are separate and sometimes can be mated with blades for which they were not originally done. These nakago inscriptions are a specialty of the Hon'ami family. According to Yamanaka, op. cit., Vol. I, No. 3 (March, 1968), pp. 2122, kinzogan-mei are gold inlays found only on suriage blades, red lacquer shumei "only on a blade which is ubu, " and gold lacquer kinpun-mei " has the same purpose as the shumei." He goes on to point out that shumei were not done on shortened swords, and therefore, by implication, neither were kinpun-mei. Ogawa, op. cit., p. 70, takes a more liberal view and says shumei are on an "intact tang," and yet he illustrates a shumei on an obviously o-suriage nakago. He goes on to mention kinpun- mei without a qualification, and points out that kinzogan-mei are only "usually" on a shortened nakago." I cannot see if it is zogan or not but the nakago being intact, I should have gone for a kinpun mei, but as already seen with shumei there are always exceptions.
Brian Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 Martin, I still think there is a chance the hamon falls off the edge. Don't worry about the muneyaki (hamon at the back) we are only concerned with the actual hamon. Ignoring the hadori whitening...can you see if the actual hamon is complete? It still appears to come very close or off the edge in 2 places. Maybe just the pics...but if it does...fatal flaws. Although the forum usually err on the side of caution...when the concensus is this strong, then usually gimei is almost certain. Brian
pcfarrar Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 Hamon appears to run off on multiple points. It's been masked with hadori somewhat.
NihontoEurope Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Posted May 19, 2011 Hamon appears to run off on multiple points. It's been masked with hadori somewhat. Martin,I still think there is a chance the hamon falls off the edge. Don't worry about the muneyaki (hamon at the back) we are only concerned with the actual hamon. Ignoring the hadori whitening...can you see if the actual hamon is complete? It still appears to come very close or off the edge in 2 places. Maybe just the pics...but if it does...fatal flaws. Although the forum usually err on the side of caution...when the concensus is this strong, then usually gimei is almost certain. Brian and pcfarrar, I think both of you are making the correct judgement; the hamon appears to be running off slightly on one side of the blade. /Martin
Brian Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 Now a question for our experts (since I don't know the answer to this one either) If the hamon drops off one side of the blade, and is still complete on the other side...is this considered fatal or not? Brian
nagamaki - Franco Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 Hi Brian, generally speaking, interuption of the hamon on either side will do a sword in as far as shinsa is concerned. What I need is some signatures from NAGAYOSHI for comparison or a definate answer from someone Martin, while you're asking for definitive answers, why are you not asking about and pursuing the purchase of the books necessary to help yourself. Which is what serious collectors do.
NihontoEurope Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Posted May 19, 2011 nagamaki and ALL, When I used the word definite was referring to the signature. A definate GIMEI i.e. the smith at hand always signed with big box kanji. Books, yes. I am concurrently buying books. I currently own books and the books I cannot purchase I loan from libraries around the world. For example, Hawley (Japanese Swordsmiths) not easy to buy. Do you have a copy for sale? I'll buy it. MEIHIN KATANAEZU SHUSEI, I have a copy of that in the U.S. on hold for me right now. I don't want it shipped due to theft and it is very expensive to have it shipped and the penalty at the border is severe (it is called taxes). If the books I have on the shelf do not hold any information of the smith and the internet has no images. What would you do? So, I'm not leeching on you guys at all. This was a last resort for me on 3 of the swords/threads/posts I uploaded. The POSITIVE thing with this is that I actually have learned a lot here the last couple of days! SO THANK YOU ALL for the time you have spent on my item and the items I wanted. Hopefully I can repay you some day. Perhaps I can get a hold of a sword that you want, perhaps make a comment, perhaps I have a book of information or perhaps I have a sword that can be used as comparison. What "use" would you have to resources that have the same knowledge as yourself? /Martin
Jean Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 Martin, IMO, if you are looking for mei examples buy: Fujishiro books: Nihonto Toko Jiten : koto and shinto volumes - translation available by AFU Watson Nihonto learning: The Conoisseur book of the Japanese swords by Nakayama Kokan translated by Kenji Mishina Nihonto Koza 6 Volumes translated by AFU Watson
NihontoEurope Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Posted May 19, 2011 Martin,IMO, if you are looking for mei examples buy: Fujishiro books: Nihonto Toko Jiten : koto and shinto volumes - translation available by AFU Watson Nihonto learning: The Conoisseur book of the Japanese swords by Nakayama Kokan translated by Kenji Mishina Nihonto Koza 6 Volumes translated by AFU Watson Jean, The Conoisseur book of the Japanese swords by Nakayama Kokan translated by Kenji Mishina - In the shelf already Fujishiro books - on wish-list. Nihonto Koza 6 Volumes - I will try to look for that one. Thank you for tips on books! /Martin
reinhard Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 MEIHIN KATANAEZU SHUSEI, I have a copy of that in the U.S. on hold for me right now. I don't want it shipped due to theft and it is very expensive to have it shipped I can't follow your logic. You are considering this book (which is worth every cent BTW) too expensive to be shipped and on the other hand you are intending to buy doubious swords you have never seen nor know much about? - Well, you can't start collecting or doing sword-business by just going online. It takes much more than that. Anyway, I strongly recommend this book to everybody. It is representing in a fabulous way the quintessence of a man whose connoisseurship is undisputed even by his critics. reinhard
NihontoEurope Posted May 19, 2011 Author Report Posted May 19, 2011 reinhard, We all have different logics. That is the beauty. I drive a 4WD JEEP. What do you drive? I went online in 1988. When did you? : ) /Martin
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