NihontoEurope Posted May 17, 2011 Report Posted May 17, 2011 Hi, This is a supposedly NAGAYOSHI. A very fine piece of work, but I have no clue whatsoever which smith it is. It is a 2-kanji signature and according to my incomplete Hawley reference book there is no NAGAYOSHI registered there (who signed with only 2 characters). I think it is a YAMISHIRO sword. I will upload some reference and some oshigata that I have found. Any help is a help. Ruling out some NAGAOSHI smiths might narrow down the list. NAGASA 28.8 ｃｍ SORI MEASUREMENT 0.0 ｃｍ KISSAKI MEASUREMENT 3.5 ｃｍ KASANE 6.5ｍｍ MOTOHABA 2.8 ｃｍ SAKIHABA 1.93 ｃｍ NAKAGO LENGTH 8.2 ｃｍ （from end of HABAKI) IORI-MUNE MEDIUM Regards Martin
paulb Posted May 17, 2011 Report Posted May 17, 2011 Martin, Without wanting to be awkward I find it very difficult to make any comment based on your compilation image. I think it may be an interesting piece but would really appreciate seeing a simple image of the complete blade rather than the assembly presented. Thanks Paul
NihontoEurope Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Posted May 17, 2011 Paul, You are not awkward. Thank you for the remark. I was trying to keep it simple and minimize the amount of images uploaded. Mission and request accomplished. /Martin
NihontoEurope Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Posted May 17, 2011 Mariuszk, In what way is it strange? Poorly made or poor as in not detailed enough? I have no opinion at all. /Martin
Marius Posted May 17, 2011 Report Posted May 17, 2011 In what way is it strange? Poorly made or poor as in not detailed enough? It is poor (as far as I can see from your pics, and what the heck is that sprawling vine that should in fact be a stylized dragon? The horimono is bad IMHO, ato-bori, possibly to hide some flaws. Here is a pic with the most offending detail. I cannot criticize the rest, as your pics are low-res. But the whole horimono seems crap (forgive me my bluntness, I might be wrong - in such a case shame on me)
Stephen Posted May 17, 2011 Report Posted May 17, 2011 mariuszk that just your lack of experience showing. many Hori are like that type of dragon edit to add ...yes shame on you for calling something crap when you dont know what your talking about.
NihontoEurope Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Posted May 17, 2011 Stephen and mariuszk, Thank you for commenting. Any comment is good! Stephen, Is this a NAGAYOSHI you uploaded?? /Martin
Jean Posted May 17, 2011 Report Posted May 17, 2011 So no kurikara, it is named. Found on Bizen and Soshu. Most famous one: http://www.sho-shin.com/chogi.htm
Marius Posted May 17, 2011 Report Posted May 17, 2011 yes shame on you for calling something crap when you dont know what your talking about. shame on me, then I'll use a sword without a horimono for my seppuku, just in case it might be an ato-bori Still, allow me to think it is a bad horimono. Good pics (high resolution) will prove if I am right or wrong (I am not sure, of course). BTW, I think a more courteous reprimand would not harm anybody. I may not know what I am talking about, but you could have put this in a more agreable tone, sparing me the embarrassment that comes with such a merciless exposure of my blatant lack of knowledge. This could have been done without blunting the edge of your criticism - I think in such a case it would be called politeness. On the other hand, I must admit I have transgressed the rues of civility using the word "crap". For this, please everybody accept my apologies. I have deserved your remark. Thank you for that I will use more caution in the future. 1
NihontoEurope Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Posted May 17, 2011 ALL, Sorry for image quality. I must be both polite and repetetive with the person in Japan to whom I am in contact with. I have told him several times that 22kb pictures wont do the job. I have even helped him to set his camera to High-Res mode. Unfortunately it seems to have reverted back to four-point-three-billion-images-can-be-saved-on-SD-card-mode. I trying, in a humble way, to make him see what I and you see here : ) /Martin
NihontoEurope Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Posted May 17, 2011 mariuszk, Please do not commit seppuku. It is not the way of life, the dou. It is a bad thing. /Martin
NihontoEurope Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Posted May 17, 2011 Jean, Can you please explain.... Have you found the smith?!? /Martin
Stephen Posted May 17, 2011 Report Posted May 17, 2011 Mari...yes it sounds harsh its the internet and i did not put in any smilies....if it was your first time jumping on someone or something i might have overlooked...any back up here mods?
Marius Posted May 17, 2011 Report Posted May 17, 2011 Mari...yes it sounds harsh its the internet and i did not put in any smilies....if it was your first time jumping on someone or something i might have overlooked...any back up here mods? Stephen, I have well deserved it, even a reply so harsh, as it had no smilies Thank you for acknowleding it was the first time I have been rude. It shall be the last time. And no, I will not commit seppuku, I will be just more cautious when giving opinions. Probably too much whiskey today. I will never ever post after a bottle of this stuff Apologies
NihontoEurope Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Posted May 17, 2011 mariuszk, I welcome any opinions! You are both legally and morally safe. /Martin
Jean Posted May 17, 2011 Report Posted May 17, 2011 Everyone cool down. You'll never see me using the word "crap". There is always a doubt, so I state it. (except for e-bay) When someone is wrong, I am only factual. So no Kurikara is one of the best known Horimono and found by tenth. Back to Nagayoshi : your Fujishiro .jpeg translated Page 228 NAGAYOSHI SANJÔ [EISHÔ 1504 YAMASHIRO] SUEKOTÔ JÔSAKU He is the son of Sanjô Yoshinori, and there are Eishô hachinen and jûsannen among his works. As to whether he is the same as the second generation of the previously presented Nagayoshi, only works inscribed Sanjô are seen, and none are seen inscribed Heianjô. Among his works, katana are few and kozori tantô are numerous. Most of his works have fine horimono of kenmakiryû, fudô nado. Hamon is gonome midare, midare ha, hitatsura nado. Signatures: YOSHINORI NO KO NAGAYOSHI SAKU SANJÔ NAGAYOSHI SAKU NAGAYOSHI SAKU Plate I: YOSHINORI NO KO NAGAYOSHI SAKU Plate II: NAGAYOSHI SAKU Plate III: SANJÔ NAGAYOSHI SAKU
NihontoEurope Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Posted May 17, 2011 Jean, Based on your comment, "So no kurikara", I found some information in a book I have (The connoisseur's book of Japanese swords). At page 81 the are some info. Being to lazy to take a picture and the lack of a scanner I post a link: http://books.google.com/books?id=zPyswm ... ra&f=false Something to work on... /Martin
Jean Posted May 17, 2011 Report Posted May 17, 2011 First generation:NAGAYOSHI HEIANJÔ [ENTOKU 1489 YAMASHIRO] SUEKOTÔ JÔJÔSAKU The shodai is said to be of around Eikyô, but from where I look at it, this work is from an earlier period. Therefore, I think that the fame of Nagayoshi in this world started with this smith. Also, there is an earlier theory that the Nagayoshi of around Bunmei and the Nagayoshi of around Bunki are different persons, but this is not clear. He is said to be the teacher of Ise Muramasa. His works have a thin kasane, hamon is sugu in the koshiba, yahazu midare, notare ha nado, and sô no kurikara are engraved. Signatures: HEIANJÔ NAGAYOSHI SAKU NAGAYOSHI HEIANJÔ NAGAYOSHI SANSHÛ KUNI SAKU Plate I: BUN? ? NEN JÛNIGATSU HI [TN] Plate II: HEIANJÔ NAGAYOSHI SAKU Page 226 Plate I: MEIÔ ROKUNEN KUGATSU SANJÛHI Plate II: HEIANJÔ NAGAYOSHI Plate III: NAGAYOSHI SAKU Plate IV: No caption Sô no kurikara are almost the same horimono in Nagayoshi, Yoshifusa, Muramasa, Masazane nado. They are a little bit different than the engravings of late Sôshû. The fact that the area where the tail of the dragon wraps around the sword is carved shallow is a distinctive feature of Osafune (the part in the oshigata that is light and obscured). Plate V: HEIANJÔ NAGAYOSHI SANSHÛ KUNI SAKU CQFD
NihontoEurope Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Posted May 17, 2011 Jean, One issue... Having vacuum cleaned the whole internet the last couple of days for NAGAYOSHI signatures and variants, I have only seen the -長吉SAKU and not a single one with 長吉-only and the specimens have all been few. What do you think? It is a KINZOGAN MEI. AND some breaking news... I have an incoming picture from Japan. I hope the email servers in Japan can cope with attachments over 100kb. Uploading soon. /Martin
Jacques D. Posted May 17, 2011 Report Posted May 17, 2011 Hi, I agree with Mariuszk, this horimono is poorly done and resembles in no way those of Heianjo Nagayoshi. A nice example of So no Kurikara (Heianjo Nagayoshi at the bottom of this page : http://www.japansword.co.jp/announce2.htm
NihontoEurope Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Posted May 17, 2011 The man from Japan...he went Kamikaze on me and dumped a big payload in my in-tray! I hope this helps. Jacques D., Seen that one : ) /Martin
Jacques D. Posted May 18, 2011 Report Posted May 18, 2011 Hi, That doesn't make me change my opinion.
Toryu2020 Posted May 18, 2011 Report Posted May 18, 2011 Curious to see the nakago/signature - It looks a bit big (wider/longer) than one might expect for Shodai Nagayoshi, might be his school but I would think later generation... -t
Brian Posted May 18, 2011 Report Posted May 18, 2011 Martin, Is that hamon still on the blade in the kissaki area? Maybe some nie speckling it, but not 100% convinced the hamon is intact... Brian
NihontoEurope Posted May 18, 2011 Author Report Posted May 18, 2011 Toryu,. I will upload omote side of nagako, but not right now. Brian, It is the hamon that continues up the ridge on the mune. I have requested an image which clarifies it and by mouth I can say it is thin and unbroken and expands. Is this good or bad? Uploading images later. /Martin
NihontoEurope Posted May 18, 2011 Author Report Posted May 18, 2011 Martin,Is that hamon still on the blade in the kissaki area? Maybe some nie speckling it, but not 100% convinced the hamon is intact... Brian It appears that the hamon is "licking" the upper part and expands on one side with a stop/break, while the other side clearly runs along all the way to the expansion. Almost like it is supposed to run along the mune even after the expansion (looking closely). Good news or bad news? PAINT does not have The Spell Checking feature. Poing = Point : ) /Martin
NihontoEurope Posted May 18, 2011 Author Report Posted May 18, 2011 Curious to see the nakago/signature -It looks a bit big (wider/longer) than one might expect for Shodai Nagayoshi, might be his school but I would think later generation... -t This is tricky. Jean pointed out (according to his current info) earlier that only Shodai signed with 2 characters. I have not seen one yet so I have no idea at all. When you say big, I would see a box signature where each character is approximately 1.3x1.3 cm if framed. Right? Is this public information somewhere, where you have the Shodai data? /Martin
reinhard Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 Do your homework, Martin, then come back. reinhard
Toryu2020 Posted May 19, 2011 Report Posted May 19, 2011 Leonard - I didnt see the signature in the earlier photos, though I do want to see it - I was speaking of the blade shape - if this is a "tanto" it does not appear to be the right shape for Shodai Nagayoshi - check whatever references you have and try to match this shape to a period (era) - from there we can look for schools and then maybe your smith... -t "licking the mune"
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