nicks on tsuba mimi

[Bugyotsuji]

Where might we expect to find most (sword?) notches/nicks on the mimi of a tsuba, and why?

[sanjuro]

Opinion only:

Swordsmanship changed over the years and it would depend on the age of the tsuba. Having said that, It also depends on the skill of the swordsman. Generally, the older the tsuba the more likely it would be that the nicks could be anywhere on the tsuba mimi. Tachi tsuba took a fair battering during a fight. Katana tsuba would be more likely to have nicks on the mune or omote sector of the tsuba mimi looking at it from the blade side. It has a lot to do with the way the sword is used defensively. This is theoretically speaking of course.

In reality, a nick on the mimi could occur anywhere.

 

OK........ So now you can all shoot holes in my theory. :D

[Soshin]

Where might we expect to find most (sword?) notches/nicks on the mimi of a tsuba, and why?

I know that some Momoyama Period Nobuie tsuba had signs that the tsuba was intentionality cut by a sword. Here is a link to the website of a Nobuie tsuba which a test cut performed on it: http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/ono.htm. By the nature of how the cut was done the tsuba was not mounted on another sword at the time which indicates that it was a test cut. Thank goodness test cuts are no longer done on original Nobuie

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[Curran]

Test cuts on tsuba seem to have been an early edo thing. They often traverse the nakago ana in impossible fashion and are done in a way which seems to maximize the visibility when they are remounted. Sort of a manly manly thing? I do not recall seeing it on anything later than early Edo.

 

I have owned one of Jim Gilbert's "test-cut" tsuba. Enjoyed studying it for years.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi David,

 

I just had a poke around your very interesting website. It might be an idea to actually say, somewhere, who you are :D You haven't introduced yourself

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Bugyotsuji]

Many thanks for the thoughtful replies. I have a shoami katana tsuba with about 20+ nicks all concentrated to one side of the cutting edge. They are at various gentle angles and depths and widths, but in one area the cuts are so close that the mimi begins to look like the serrated edge of certain coins.

 

Perhaps it had to do with the fashionable techniques of the time, yes, but also with the peculiar combination of two opponents in one particular fight, rather than any general rule? If so, the anywhere theory sounds good.

 

This got me thinking about the material of a tsuba. Presumably one consideration would be how the metal receives a cutting edge. To some extent it would need to be just soft enough to absorb a blow and slow down the opponent's sword. (?)

[Toryu2020]

Piers -

I should be interested in what exactly you are seeing - generally cuts to the tsuba are to be avoided at all cost in Japanese Swordsmanship - blocking was done with the shinogi and even this was to be avoided. Contact with the tsuba certainly occurred but was rare, multiple strikes to the same tsuba in the course of a single fight does not make sense to me.

 

I think iron would provide the best protection but the idea of using a "soft" tsuba to capture a sword blade scares me, I would'nt want to rely on my tsuba for that kind of protection - if your attacker is getting that close to your hands you are soon to be dead anyway...

-t

[Bugyotsuji]

Thank you Thomas for your considered reply. I will post a crystal clear, super close-up shot this evening! (Crescents crossed... :lol: )

[Lorenzo]

about 20+ nicks all concentrated to one side of the cutting edge[...]the peculiar combination of two opponents in one particular fight, rather than any general rule?

 

Piers, I think that 20 strikes on a tsuba during only one fight is very unlikely. It reminds me this.

 

I am waiting to see the pictures to clear it out :D

[Bugyotsuji]

Piers, I think that 20 strikes on a tsuba during only one fight is very unlikely. It reminds me this.

 

I am waiting to see the pictures to clear it out :D

 

Ah Lorenzo, sometimes you do make me laugh. Whoever said the Italians had no sense of humor/humour?

 

(What? No-one said that?) :lol:

[Ford Hallam]

I have to say that I'm very sceptical about the vast majority of alleged battle damage/sword cuts that are to be seen on tsuba.

 

If we consider the relative rarity of battle scars on blades and take into account that it was the blade that was used for parrying blows then it seems odd that there seems to be more evidence of damage to tsuba.

 

To my mind just because a tsuba has marks/cuts on it doesn't automatically suggest that they were made by an opponents sword. If every possible mark is taken as evidence of a duel then my workshop has seen some furious swordplay when I'm not around because there are similar nicks and marks on many tools. I think that there's a willingness to accept the romance of these pieces that far too easily distorts mundane reality. I'd like to see some considered reasoning and evidence beyond the "it looks like (what I think and based on no verifiable examples) a sword cut would look like so therefore it is a sword cut" type of argument.

 

I wonder if the veteran bushi of old might not even have regarded a sword cut to a tsuba as a matter of extreme embarrassment rather than something to show off. It would possibly signal that the wearer was a bit rubbish at fighting .

 

Anyway, I'm not trying to pick an argument, just offering my observations. Exceptional claims require exceptional proof and all that....

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Bugyotsuji]

Thank you Ford.

 

That brings me back to the original question. Where might we expect to find (sword?) nicks on the mini of a Tsuba and why? In your opinion, we wouldn't!

 

So now I will find an excuse to go home, take some shots of the offending tsuba and await comments... :lol:

[sanjuro]

Just adding an element to what Ford is suggesting.....

There are I am sure, dealers out there both past and present that recognise the romantic attraction of a tsuba that bears what appears to be a battle scar. This being so, it is possible that not all battle scars, particularly on otherwise unattractive soft metal tsuba's, were recieved in battle..........

I would agree that most of what is attributed to battle damage on many tsuba, is in fact just wear and tear of a more mundane variety or otherwise just simple abuse. The tsuba around today have passed through many hands, not all of which have been caring hands.

 

As far as Piers tsuba goes, I would believe the possibility of one nick in the mimi. Twenty or more nicks in close proximity sounds more like abuse rather than use. Firstly, an opponent would not make twenty unsuccessful cuts in the same manner without varying the attack. Secondly, the receiver of those attacks would not defend against repeated attacks in the same manner if he were trying to gain the upper hand in a fight. Thirdly, very few sword fights lasted long enough to make twenty or more cuts. Most real fights lasted less than two minutes and comprised only a few cuts/thrusts and/or parries before one or both combatants were killed. Real fights were often only a cut-parry-cut or thrust sequence, or cut-evade-cut sequence. Multiple passages of arms were quite rare, and mutual killing was quite common since once engaged, a swordsman stands only a one in three chance of survival, and exsanguination was the most common cause of death. Makes you wonder why some of these bravo's were so keen to fight doesn't it?

[Bugyotsuji]

That must account for the popularity of the quick single stroke out up and down before the opponent had a chance to react...

 

(just charging the battery)

[sanjuro]

Piers.

 

You are familiar with the technique known as Kesa Giri? One of the oldest techniques dating back to the use of tachi.

[Bugyotsuji]

I am now, Keith. Thanks. I was thinking more of the Satsuma troops who believed in the Men stroke with a katana. This Tsuba was on sale at the Old Edo market for 70,000 yen. We haggled for a bit...

 

Here are some shots of:

 

a) the iron shoami tsuba; the edge in question marked with stick

b), c), d) the same area of mimi from different angles

e) an unmarked length of mimi for comparison.

[cabowen]

most of these look too wide to have been made by a sword, in my opinion....

[sanjuro]

These are not cut marks........ At least not IMHO. Too blunt. A blade leaves a narrow 'V' mark, at the depth shown, half as wide as these at the open end, more acute at the base, and is very clearly defined, even in an old tsuba.

 

I like the Seki Kamon motif though. :D Then again I would of course, its my avatar.

[Grey Doffin]

I agree; not made by a sword.

I do remember once some years back at a show seeing an iron tsuba with a small chip of blade stuck in the mimi.

Grey

[george trotter]

On the question of nicks on the mimi...especially multiple nicks, I have a theory which may be applicable in this case...a number of Pattern 1907 bayonets (the standard British Empire bayonets of WWI/II) show this. Every once in a while an older bayonet, say 1908-1918 is seen with multiple nicks on (usually) one side of the crossguard. These appear most on those bayonets having the early "hooked quillon". My thinking says that these are the result of bayonet fighting instruction. An instructor uses the same bayonet to teach a number of recruits how to parry a thrust...hence the nicks.

Perhaps multiple nicks on a mimi is also the result of instruction sessions?...while one or two nicks is the result of a combat situation?

Just a thought.

Geo.

[sanjuro]

George.

 

Good theory....... However, instructors in swordsmanship dont teach using real blades for practice, such as you describe. Bokken are more often than not substituted for practice involving blade to blade contact. This is primarlily because a valuable (and extremely sharp) blade in the hands of a novice is extremely dangerous. As anyone who has taught swordsmanship could tell you, the most dangerous opponent you can find is one of your own pupils. A novice's actions are not predictable. Therefore the possibility of accidents occurring is much greater. Nihonto are also not as prolific or as disposable as army issue bayonets, and would not be subjected to the hazards of highly repetitive practice that involved actual contact.

[george trotter]

Of course, bokken...you are right Keith...hence all the bruised sword pupils tottering hither and yon :lol:

Geo.

[sanjuro]

George.

 

Pain is a great teacher and it is far better than having a lot of sword pupils bleeding all over the place.

[dirk marshall]

kashira from former member of parry with kashira sword club

[Bugyotsuji]

Love that photo. Some great replies here. Many thanks.

 

I should have mentioned that the nick shots were taken from 1~2 cm away.

 

They look too deep for someone casually placing the sword even on a concrete floor. The opposite rim bears no evidence of counter bracing. So I will assume that someone either used this tsuba for whacking the edge of something hard enough to dent steel, (ignorance, iconoclasm?) or they hit it with a Mozo-to or sharp-edged iron implement as an experiment in ... what?

[Lorenzo]

:?

 

I keep my initial position; the cut marks as a result of a fight is too unlikely. The perfect parallelism between them is a further proof.

 

I came to think about ara-tameshi instead. I won't discuss on the purpose of that, but the tsuba might have been inserted in a wood slot to keep it steady and then struck with some sort of blade or many blades, to test the swords or to test the tsuba (sort of bullet tested armours)... however I fear that a full force ara-tameshi could break the tsuba mimi instead of living that shallow mark :|

 

Very odd

[Bugyotsuji]

Interesting theory Lorenzo. That could explain why the marks are over the weakest, ie the longest unsupported section of mimi.