$6+ for a navy saber? why?

[kaigunair]

I am very curious who this smith is, Naohiro? I guessing (hoping) that's why this blade went this high. Can someone school me? Blade looks like is in need of some serious polish, and I think they level of rust may go deep?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=180663476703&si=whcHxxt6yNETugR1JAs%252Fk0kuE98%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

[Mark Green]

Ultra Rare. The fittings look very nice.

[kaigunair]

What do you mean by ultra rare? The mountings or the smith?

[kusunokimasahige]

Very early perhaps, mon on the scabbard, quality of fittings pristine, blade polishable.... such things...

 

KM

[kaigunair]

  kusunokimasahige said:

Very early perhaps, Oda mon on the scabbard, could indicate one of the families supporting the early Meiji regime, quality of fittings pristine, blade polishable.... such things...

KM

 

So, the $6k+ is more about the mountings than the blade/smith itself? I had thought maybe the smith was famous and well known.

 

In that case, this type of pricing, based only on the mountings, seems INSANE. I jest, but it is alittle incredulous to me that this sort of value is being attributed to fittings. Maybe I'm the uninformed...

 

Also, because I've seen this start popping up even in some recent books, I'm facinated when there is a particular attribution made to a family merely based on a kamon. Yes, if its the 16 petal chrysathemum or the tokugawa crest, but having a little silver kamon on a sword hilt or on a kabuto or gusoku and then attributing it to a particular family without any corroborating evidence seems without fact or cause. Kamons weren't like european healdry in that they were so detailed to be unique as to one family. Where are people getting this idea about the tracability of kamons, especially in the late 19th and 20th century when any family could choose one?

 

Wait a second, is this perhaps Togo's blade?

[pcfarrar]

  kaigunair said:

I am very curious who this smith is, Naohiro?

 

He's an earlier generation of the swordsmith Naohiro who makes swords for the Kashima sisters at Usagiya.

 

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/Naohirodai.html

 

Price is a little on the high side but it is a very nice example.

[cabowen]

If the blade was made by Gassan Sadakatsu I could understand it...Naohiro was an average smith....Smells fishy to me....

[kaigunair]

  pcfarrar said:

He's an earlier generation of the swordsmith Naohiro who makes swords for the Kashima sisters at Usagiya.

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/Naohirodai.html

Price is a little on the high side but it is a very nice example.

 

Ah, thanks very much. That's what I was originally wondering, and I appreciate the link. Well, makes alittle more sense, but this is moving it into the yasukunito price range. I take it the earlier Naohiro was very skilled? Else, I would agree with cabowen...

[kusunokimasahige]

I'm facinated when there is a particular attribution made to a family merely based on a kamon. Yes, if its the 16 petal chrysathemum or the tokugawa crest, but having a little silver kamon on a sword hilt or on a kabuto or gusoku and then attributing it to a particular family without any corroborating evidence seems without fact or cause. Kamons weren't like european healdry in that they were so detailed to be unique as to one family. Where are people getting this idea about the tracability of kamons, especially in the late 19th and 20th century when any family could choose one?

 

http://www.asgy.co.jp/anglais/whatskamon/history.html

 

Also:

 

History

 

It is thought that mon originated as fabric patterns to be used on clothes in order to distinguish individuals or signify membership in a specific clan or organization. By the twelfth century, sources give a clear indication that heraldry had been implemented as a distinguishing feature, especially for use in battle. It is seen on flags, tents, and equipment.

 

Like European heraldry, mon were initially held only by aristocratic families, and were gradually adapted by commoners. On the battlefield, mon served as army standards, even though this usage was not universal and uniquely designed army standards were just as common as mon-based standards. (cf. sashimono, uma-jirushi) Mon were also adapted by various organizations, such as merchant and artisan guilds, temples and shrines, theater troupes and even criminal gangs. In an illiterate society, they served as useful symbols for recognition.

 

Japanese traditional formal attire generally displays the mon of the wearer. Commoners without mon often used those of their patron or the organization they belonged to. In cases when none of those were available, they sometimes used one of the few mon which were seen as "vulgar", or invented or adapted whatever mon they wished, passing it on to their descendants. It was not uncommon for shops, and therefore shop-owners, to develop mon to identify themselves.

 

Rules regulating the choice and use of mon were somewhat limited, though the selection of mon was generally determined by social customs. It was considered improper to use a mon that was known to be held by someone else, and offensive to use a mon that was held by someone of a high rank. When mon came into conflict, the lower-ranked person sometimes changed their mon to avoid offending their superior. The mon held by the ruling clans of Japan, such as Tokugawa's hollyhock mon and the Emperor's chrysanthemum mon, were legally protected from unauthorized usage.

 

Occasionally, patron clans granted the use of their mon to their retainers as a reward. Similar to the granting of the patron's surnames, this was considered a very high honor. Alternatively, the patron clan may have added elements of its mon to that of its retainer, or choose a completely different mon for them.

 

Virtually all modern Japanese families have a mon, though modern usage is rare. Many Japanese may no longer recognize their own family's mon. On occasions when the use of mon is required, one can try to look it up in the temple registries of their ancestral hometown or consult one of the many genealogical publications available. Professional wedding planners, undertakers and other ritual masters may also offer guidance on finding the proper mon.

 

Mon can still be seen widely on stores and shops engaged in traditional crafts and specialties. They are favored by sushi restaurants which often incorporate a mon into their logos, while mon designs can be seen on the ceramic roof tiles of older houses. Mon designs also frequently appear on senbei, sake, tofu, and other packaging for foodstuffs to lend them an air of elegance and refinement. The paulownia mon appears on the obverse side of the 500 yen coin.

 

Items symbolizing family crafts, arts or professions were often chosen as a mon. A fan design might be chosen by a geisha. A woman may still wear her maiden mon if she wishes and pass them on to her daughters and does not have to adopt her husband's or father's mon.

Logo of Mitsubishi ("three hishi", or water chestnuts), in the form of a mon

 

Mon add formality to a kimono. A kimono may have one or three or five mon. The mon themselves can be more or less formal; more formal kimono display more numerous mon, and frequently in a manner so as to make them stand out more. This may help dress up or dress down the formality of a kimono at the wearer's discretion. In the dress of the ruling class, the mon could be found on the kimono on both sides of the chest, on both sleeves, and in the middle of the back. On the armour, it could be found on the kabuto (helmet), on the do (cuirass), flags, and various other places. Mon could also be found on coffers, tents, fans, and many other items of importance.

 

As in the past, modern mon are not regulated by any law, with the exception of the imperial chrysanthemum, which doubles as the national emblem, and the paulownia, which is the mon of the office of prime minister and also serves as the emblem of the cabinet and the government. Some local governments, associations and businesses may use mon as their logo or trademark, and thus enjoy all the protection as such, but otherwise mon are not recognized by law. One of the best known examples of a corporate logo in the form of a mon is the logo for Mitsubishi, a name meaning "three water chestnuts", which are represented as rhombuses. Another example corporate use is the logo for Kikkoman, which is the mon of the founder.

 

Hope that clears things up for you.

 

KM

[pcfarrar]

  kaigunair said:

Ah, thanks very much. That's what I was originally wondering, and I appreciate the link. Well, makes alittle more sense, but this is moving it into the yasukunito price range. I take it the earlier Naohiro was very skilled? Else, I would agree with cabowen...

 

It's the koshirae that makes it valuable. They arent common in this condition and quality.