Jamie Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 How big would an opening have to be to be fatal? I am inspecting a wakazashi that someone wanted to trade me for a tanto, and it has a grain opening within the hamon about seven inches long. It's slight, but it's also there. Four inches of it can be seen with the naked eye, and about three more can be seen with a jeweler's loop and i see that it connects to the ware. In addition to this, it has a few very small ware. It's supposed to a koto wakazashi. it has muneyaki almost the length of the Blade. Has a bonji almost at the Kissaki. I think that may have been added after it was made. I think it may be shinto as well. The pics I have of it do not show these ware or I would post them. In summary I have two questions: How long would a grain opening within the hamon have to be to be fatal? What schools inKoto used Muneyaki? I don't think it's soshu, or sue soshu. Quote
David Flynn Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 Any opening in the Hamon is not good. Considering the length you have described, I would say this sword is f****d :D Quote
Marius Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 If your flaw is an open layer, it is not fatal, if it is a tempering crack, it is. A fatal crack is one that renders the sword useless as a weapon, e.g. hagire. You wouldn't trust a sword with a hagire - it is likely to break. Quote
Jamie Posted May 10, 2011 Author Report Posted May 10, 2011 It's no hagire. It is not on both sides(and I looked with a jeweler's loop). It's an open layer. And it isn't deep but it's too long I think, and within the hamon. Also not too far from the edge. Considered fatal or not, I bet it would be a weakness in the blade. Quote
sanjuro Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 Jamie. There is much said about the differences between fatal and none fatal flaws. However, any lesion or irregularity poses a threat as a weakness in the blade... a loss of integrity if you would rather look at it that way. A sword with any sizeable fault is therefore suspect in a practical sense. The size of opening you describe would to a swordsman be sufficient to not trust the blade. This however may be different from what a modern collector would consider a fatal flaw to be. We are dealing here with two sometimes opposed viewpoints. Thankfully we no longer depend upon a blade for our very lives, so a sword that has a flaw that would in times gone by have rendered it useless in a practical sense may still have artistic merit and be collectable. What you describe is a forging fault and a significant one. (Its hard to be sure without pics). Any crack or open fold in the ha is not good and would in my opinion render the sword useless, since any stress would extend the damage and perhaps cause the blade to fail. You mention a bonji near the kissaki which is also not a good sign since bonji were often cut later to disguise faults. The presence of other small ware in this blade also indicates either a very tired or coarsely forged blade. On the whole, it would seem this blade has a few question marks which make it a risky buy or trade. Quote
jeremy Posted May 12, 2011 Report Posted May 12, 2011 The shinsakuto I train with for my batto-do shizan cutting practise has a small hada-ware, about 1.5cm long in the nioi-guchi right in the mono-uchi part of the blade. I bought this sword with Ishikawa sensei and Tzuzuki sensei whilst in Japan in 2009 from a smith by the name of Ogawa Kanekuni in Seki. I have put this sword through at least 50 green bamboo poles and at least 100 wara, with no problem regarding the loose grain. Admittedly, my shinsakuto hasnt seen as much polishes as the antique tanto mentioned by the OP. So, not all hada ware are considered fatal by a users standpoint even if they are in the hamon. These things must be seen in hand to be able to make a clear judgement. Just my thoughts. :D Kind regards, Jeremy Hagop Quote
Jamie Posted May 12, 2011 Author Report Posted May 12, 2011 Jeremy, Thanks for your input. The one I am speaking of may not be fatal, but it's pretty good size in length. It's much longer than 1.5 CM though. And close to the edge. I've decided that to me, it's detrimental. Other than this Ware though it's a nice blade. Nie floating into the Ji. It's also very well balanced and feels great in hand. Polish is good, Etc. Again, thanks for your input. Nice to hear from someone who has used a blade with ware. Quote
jeremy Posted May 13, 2011 Report Posted May 13, 2011 Hey Jamie, No problem mate. How close to the edge is this hada-kizu, out of interest? Kind regards, Jeremy Hagop Quote
Jamie Posted May 13, 2011 Author Report Posted May 13, 2011 Jeremy, It's between 4 and 7MM from the edge. It's not wide, but definitely visible. Keith, I though the same thing about the bonji. Figured it had been added later. And there is a very small spot just to the right of one of the dots- I am just about positive it's there to hide a flaw. Quote
sanjuro Posted May 13, 2011 Report Posted May 13, 2011 Hi Jamie. At least you are fully aware and not under any misapprehension concerning the shortcomings of the blade in question. It is now up to you to accept or reject it on either a common sense or emotional basis as you see fit. Quote
TTyMiller Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 I have a question while we are on fatal flaws; if the boshi has a crack that is not through to the other side is it still considered a fatal flaw. Quote
cabowen Posted June 21, 2011 Report Posted June 21, 2011 TTyMiller said: I have a question while we are on fatal flaws; if the boshi has a crack that is not through to the other side is it still considered a fatal flaw. depends where it is and how it is positioned... Quote
TTyMiller Posted June 22, 2011 Report Posted June 22, 2011 Thanks Chris I'll have to get a pic to post. Quote
TTyMiller Posted June 22, 2011 Report Posted June 22, 2011 This is what I'm concerned about. the small portion in the upper left corner and it may not be an actual crack but need professional advice! Quote
Grey Doffin Posted June 22, 2011 Report Posted June 22, 2011 Hi Terry, If, as you say, this is one side only, it looks to me like a small forging flaw/ware'. I wouldn't call this fatal or even close. Grey Quote
sanjuro Posted June 22, 2011 Report Posted June 22, 2011 Hi Terry. You might want to check in on this topic for a similar situation.http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10628 Quote
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