Help with my Katana

[cabowen]

If Nakahara isn't your cup of tea, here is another source and explanation- this is from Tokuno. He explains that sometimes blades with a ridge line that ends a bit before the point are also called shobu-zukuri. The drawing speaks for itself...

[Jean]

http://www.touken-sato.com/e-shop/nagashige_tantou.html

[george trotter]

Well, it seems that Jean and Chris have provided good reference material from Japanese scholars. Both Chris' Tokuno (right fig) and Jean's from the Token-Sato sword site say (for those who don't read Japanese) that the shape illustrated is shobu-zukuri. So, they're saying that:

shobu-zukuri is a blade which has the mune, the ha and the shinogi all meeting at the tip.

moroha-zukuri is a blade with two ha meeting at the tip.

 

Looking at page 21 of Nakahara, fig 14 shows what he calls a nagamaki-naoshi-zukuri... Nakahara shows it is basically a shinogi-zukuri shape without yokote. As this is the same shape as the sword posted on this thread it seems reasonable to say that the sword posted here can be called "nagamaki-naoshi" (either in shape or in fact).

 

Interesting discussion.

Geo.

[reinhard]

"I will now give you a lecture on naginata blades. As is clear in the original word "nagi-gatana" once used to call what is now named naginata, which is a corrupted as well as abbreviated way of pronouncing nagi-gatana, the primary use of the type of blades presently called naginata was to "mow-down" the enemy. Stories and drawings depicting naginata in actual use began to appear in literature written around the time of two successive battles between the Genji and the Heike starting 1056.

More tales involving war heros' distinguished military services accomplished by use of naginata followed in war stories such as "Hogen and Heiji no Ran Monogatari" and "Genpei no Seisuiki".

However, it now seems more appropriate to consider that naginata examples extant to date are all works from the mid Kamakura onward. To mention very old examples that I have come across, there are works of Ichimonji KORESUKE, Osafune NAGAMITSU, KAGEMITSU, Yoshioka Ichimonji SUKEMITSU, Fukuoka ICHIMONJI, Rai KUNITOSHI, Taema in Yamato, NORISHIGE in Etchu, Miike in Chikugo, and so on. The common characteristics of these naginata works lie in their sizes measuring around 51.5cm - 54.5cm in blade length and the overall modest widths, as well as the shape consisting of fairly uniform widths maintained toward the tip and the modest sori.

With the turn of the Nanbokucho period, however, enormously long o-naginata, just like the o-dachi of the same period, came into being. Their lengths measured as long as 75.75cm - 78.8cm. The shape consisted of wide mihaba, exaggerated width in the upper portion, and fairly marked sori; but they were made very thin in kasane, as in the case of the contemporary o-dachi works, therefore keeping a good balance on the whole. The most important thing to be noted here, however, is the edge curve of the point which is rather straight (fukura kareru). This has an effect in making the blade look very sharp, but a more important purpose of taking such a shape in terms of practical merits must have been the greatest possible cutdown in weights. It is also true and another important point to be noted of the naginata of Nanbokucho days that some of them were considerably smaller in overall sizes but their shapes and styles as a whole were perfectly homologous to those of o-naginata.

It should be mentioned in this connection that the naginata in Muromachi days was made to have a size approximately inbetween the Kamakura and the Nanbokucho works. In terms of saki-haba and sakisori, however, the Muromachi work was made to have far more exaggerated characteristics than the work of previous periods and such an exaggerated shape is often described as having a point like a thrown-back head. I think it is a pretty good statement describing the appearence of sori in Muromachi blades. Further in the Muromachi period, naginata blades attained the all-time-high popularity and, therefore, more works remain to date from this period.

On the other hand, it is also true that naginata were obviously considered minor, informal weapons to be used in battlefields, therefore, disposables when compared with tachi and other forms of blades. This is probably why there are no very old naginata examples extant from Heian and early Kamakura days. It was probably in the mid Kamakura period that naginata of better quality began to be produced, and especially in the Nanbokucho period that outstanding naginata were produced in large numbers. Nevertheless the number of extant works is very small. This is because a great many of them have been largely shortened in later days and further re-formed into uchigatana or wakizashi styles which were attainable by cutting off the back of the point. These re-formed blades have been called either nagamaki-naoshi or naginata-naoshi.I should think it is more appropriate to call them naginata-naoshi.

Now, on the relationship between nagamaki and naginata. It is likely the similarity existing between aikuchi and tanto: the term nagamaki derived from a certain style of koshirae to fit in naginata blades, and referred to the long (nagai) hilt finished in hirumaki style (narrowly spaced notches). A reference to the "naginata in nagamaki style" can be found in war tales such as "Heike Monogatari" and gives evidence to the validity of the above theory. Therefore nagamaki should properly be called naginata.

Further there has long been an understanding that naginata refers only to those blades without yokote and that those formed with the yokote should be classified as nagamaki. This also is quite erroneous.

It should be added that a considerable number of naginata were made in early parts of the Shinto period. They took a form most closely resembling the style of Nanbokucho naginata.

Hardly any truly excellent naginata were made in mid Edo days, but there were some made almost solely for decorative purpose. With the turn of the Shin-shinto period, the form of the naginata began taking large sizes."

 

Sato KANZAN (in English Token Bijutsu no.10)

 

Let's leave it at that. Nobody here is qualified to question KANZAN's authority unless he's determined to make a fool out of himself.

 

reinhard

[george trotter]

Looking at page 21 of Nakahara, fig 14 shows what he calls a nagamaki-naoshi-zukuri... Nakahara shows it is basically a shinogi-zukuri shape without yokote. As this is the same shape as the sword posted on this thread it seems reasonable to say that the sword posted here can be called "nagamaki-naoshi" (either in shape or in fact).

 

 

or according to this latest Japanese scholarly opinion (quite old really, by Sato, Autumn 1981?...30 years ago) as supplied by reinhard, it seems equally reasonable to say that the sword posted here can be called "naginata-naoshi" (either in shape or fact). Take your pick...whatever you choose to call it, it seems to be a cut down pole-arm. As Sato says about "Aikuchi and tanto" (I think he means aikuchi and hamidashi?)...when these are unmounted and in shirasaya, they both become "tanto"...the same applies here?...we cannot tell if this sword was mounted as a nagamaki or a naginata...as a general trend, a nagamaki is a long blade on a short pole and a naginata is a short blade on a long pole...this sword seems a bit long so it would seem more likely to be mounted in the past as a nagamaki...therefore it seems reasonable to call this sword "nagamaki-naoshi".

Geo.

[Jacques D.]

Hi

 

A blade called nagamaki is a kind of naginata, nothing else, i think it's why the NBTHK always uses the term naginata naoshi on papers.

[george trotter]

That's interesting Jacques...here is something that might help the discussion on the wide usage of the terms nagamaki and naginata...a sword for sale described as NBTHK papered "nagamaki-naoshi" with sayagaki by Tanobe sensei. Length is 65.3cm. It is for sale here...

 

http://www.japanswaard.nl/

 

if this does not work try google Japanese Swords & Asian Arts...click on "Nihonto/Swords"...scroll down to item Z-T2

regards,

George

[nagamaki - Franco]

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

a sword for sale described as NBTHK papered "nagamaki-naoshi" with sayagaki by Tanobe sensei. Length is 65.3cm. It is for sale here...

 

And with papers which says Naginata naoshi 薙刀直し

[george trotter]

Yes, you are correct Jacques, that is what I mean...a sword dealer describes a sword as a nagamaki naoshi tsukuri katana, when it is actually papered as a naginata naoshi.

It seems this dual naming system is continuing....it seems there is no "rule"?

Geo.

[Ted Tenold]

The path of righteousness....

[george trotter]

Ahhhh...the path of righteousness...thou art wise Father Ted.

(from page 2)

I think we can too easily let ourselves get lost in the terminologies

 

....but did we listen Master? No, and 5 pages later the signpost to righteousness still points in many directions as you prophesied.

(You see clearly the foibles of the ants from your mountaintop in that land called Montana). :lol:

Geo.

[kusunokimasahige]

. It is for sale here...

 

http://www.japanswaard.nl/

 

if this does not work try google Japanese Swords & Asian Arts...click on "Nihonto/Swords"...scroll down to item Z-T2

regards,

George

 

Should be: http://www.japanszwaard.nl

 

KM

[acrual]

Hi all,

 

Just a brief update to let u know that there seems to be the same disagreement here than outside. Everybody says it's old but the kind of sword and author are still a complete mistery yet. I'll keep researching. Thanks all for your help!

 

Regards