Tosa Kuni Ju Myochin Munetoshi?

[Lee Bray]

Lee, what would you have said?

 

I'll be diplomatic and say that only by being in that situation could I truthfully answer your question. :D

[docliss]

This entire thread is based upon the statement by Haynes, in his Study Collection of Japanese Sword Fittings, that tsuba 167 was made by ‘a tetsubin-shi, a castor of iron tea kettles’. While a great admirer of Haynes’ expertise, I see no explanation of - or support for - this statement in his book. Neither can I see any reason to suppose that Piers’ tsuba is not an example of the work of Myochin Munetoshi II (H 06292.0) as, indeed, may be Haynes’ 167.

 

John L.

[Ford Hallam]

Hello John,

 

good to have your view to add to the growing consensus :D You may be interested to read the follow on to this unfortunate idea here.

[Bugyotsuji]

Is anyone interested in the idea of submitting this tsuba for Shinsa, just to see what the board might say? Entirely in the interests of science, of course. Would they stick to the books? Is there any fresh and independent thinking out there? Is there something we are all missing? Perhaps it is time to chase this one down. (Naturally their easiest escape clause would be the single word 'Gimei'.)

[christianmalterre]

Dear Piers,

 

yes-i agree-most probably such will happen...

The point but is-are you yourself(as the collector) rather attached on getting an statement by an organisation having an specific interest-or are you rather attached(again as the collector here) on getting an statement by an organisation explaining you with proof the WHY an howewer resulting statement results in Shinsa.

Next point; and much more important point to considder-"Who" does make Shinsa?

Are there independant working experts in that ever occuring field of art an specific object belongs to involved?

Are those indepentant working scientists,curators,restaurators who give their´s statement equally independant to each others one?

Are those experts bound due an specific organisation and due this to specific interests?

Do you get an specific statement by each one-or just an sum-conclusion?

And finally-What do you do if two experts do not conclude to the final attribution?

Who is right?

Who may be right?

Here again-now it´s up to yourself again...(Laugh)

(Very religious!LOL!)

This,in mine eyes is much more interesting and an to be quite commonly seen happening-so yes! an fresh analytical but still academical and scientifical research would be excellent!

 

Christian

[Bugyotsuji]

Thank you Christian! :lol:

 

To tell you the truth I do not have high hopes, but it might be an interesting exercise, ...or it might not.

 

One other problem is that it will be gone for some months... but then, out of sight, out of mind?

[Thierry BERNARD]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extra-L-Tsuba-M ... HOP:FR:101

[Pete Klein]

If you listen carefully you can hear a fat lady singing in the distance... (shut up Rich and Ted)! Bwah - ha - ha - ha - ha :D

[Bugyotsuji]

Well, this gift I was given is a mighty rare object. Since I would never look a gift horse in the mouth, I will own it in good faith.

 

In the same good faith I will be happy when I give it to someone down the line. :lol:

[Thierry BERNARD]

https://www.aoi-art.com/auction/en/auction.cgi?acc=disp&no=1326518564&t=1213703271

[Bugyotsuji]

Hmmm. Iron...

 

It says the Mei is 彫られています, engraved.

 

If the start price is 18,000 JPY, perhaps they are hoping for the 40,000 yen that I was told mine is worth?

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

More and more copies of the tsuba I see the more I want to see the original tsuba by Tosa Kuni Ju Myochin Munetoshi. It was likely a fine example of late Myochin school tsuba work. If photos of this original tsuba have ever been published I would love to see them. It good to see Aoi Art listing the copy as it is and questioning the signature.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Cire]

I have one of these Tsubas as well. Been sitting in a drawer for over 20 years. I just learned a little bit about it from this site. Neat stuff. = )

[Ford Hallam]

and another one, evidently these things breed like rabbits.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tsuba-Antique-Japanese-Iron-Sword-Hand-Guard-Myochin-Munetoshi-Signed-2062/321895958315?_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D34008%26meid%3D4b32f982ec74449982dd18b873e600aa%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D11%26sd%3D331700689525

 

 

 

 

[Ford Hallam]

 

Item location:

Yokohama, Japan

 

 

[Spartancrest]

Dale 

Just came across this topic and must say i am surprised at the number of people who have not seen these cast (but very well cast) guards. Bought one myself on auction last night paid a whopping 23 yen - yes that"s about 25 cents.. Christmas eve is a great time to go shopping! I have a collage of more of these tsuba images that I have come across over time. Don"t feel left out believe me there are plenty out there.

[Spartancrest]

Ford 

 

I read the earlier offshoot thread you posted about cast tsuba- and would agree most were made post Edo but as we all know many tsuba were of soft material (horn, leather, lacquered wood) so why is the brittleness of cast iron any drawback to functionality? I think it:s been discussed at length that tsuba are not used defensively, if they were we would surely see many more than we do, with cut marks. The history of cast tsuba and other fittings, I fear is not as clear cut as we may think. Be that as it may I hate getting caught with a cast guard when the seller has told me otherwise.   

 

Regards Dale 

[Lee Bray]

Though not used defensively there is still a chance that the tsuba could be struck.

I've purposely broken a couple of cast tsuba and it's very easy to do with a reasonably gentle hammer tap. I've also broken one when adding copper sekigane to it(pictured). Just the force created by the slight expansion of copper inside the tsuba ana caused the plate to break into several pieces. Makes me think that any force transmitted into your blade from either blade to blade/armour contact or even just a wild swing with the blade could break the tsuba.

As you can see with my pictured example, such catastrophic failure means the tsuba falls off completely, leaving a large space with loose seppa and habaki.

With softer materials, I doubt they would break so completely and I think the core, or seppa dai if you will, will remain intact and keep your tsuka tight and useable.

 

[Spartancrest]

Lee

 

Ouch! That looked like a nice Ex-tsuba! You may well be right about cast guards not surviving impact - could be a good (but expensive) testing criteria of guards that we are unsure of- just drop them on a tiled floor. . . No I am not serious! 

 

Do we have any evidence of when the first iron casting of tsuba and fittings took place? It would be interesting to know.

There are a lot of very fine cast Namban guards that have some age to them. Some would be very difficult to cast even today, In my opinion that makes them collectible just for that sake- practical no, tour-de-force casting yes. . 

 

Getting back to the "Dai monji tsuba". Has anyone seen any Sekigane on any of these guards? Have any actually been mounted? I have seen no evidence on the ten or eleven that I have seen, if you have it may mean you have glimpsed the mythical progenitor.     

 

Dale

 

[Guido]

Do we have any evidence of when the first iron casting of tsuba and fittings took place?

[ROKUJURO]

I would like to add a small remark to this discussion. The TETSUBIN-SHI who are being mentioned as possible makers of cast TSUBA, did not produce "tea kettles". What we Westerners use to call so are water kettles. 

Tea made in iron kettles will chemically react with the surface (tannic acid and iron), producing a beverage of repelling taste. But as we Westerners insist to use these kettles for tea, the industry now offers TETSUBIN with a coating inside to make them suitable for tea which they were not intended for traditionally.

[Bugyotsuji]

Haynes used the expression 'iron tea kettles'. Perhaps he was creating a short form for "kettles for boiling water for making tea"?

 

A kettle is for boiling water, and a (tea) pot is for making tea, in my experience.

[Ford Hallam]

 

Do we have any evidence of when the first iron casting of tsuba and fittings took place? It would be interesting to know.

There are a lot of very fine cast Namban guards that have some age to them. Some would be very difficult to cast even today, In my opinion that makes them collectible just for that sake- practical no, tour-de-force casting yes

 

The first question is wrongly worded as it presupposes that tsuba and fittings were actually cast in the past, ie; pre-industrial Japan.

 

I think the more appropriate question should be; Do we have any evidence that iron casting of tsuba and fittings took place?

 

As to Namban tsuba (with the appearance of age) that might appear to be cast, this notion remains contentious because both claims are unsupported by evidence and rely solely on subjective guesswork. Both points, "is it really cast iron/steel", and "how old is it?" must be reasonably accurately established before we can proceed from that claim.

 

I've yet to examine a genuine ferrous Namban tsuba (I've been looking, with the eyes of a professional craftsman for well over 20 years now and must have examined at least a couple of 100 by now) that looked cast to my eyes and the few that have been scientifically examined by material analysis or 'x-ray' have been revealed to be wrought iron. The 'x-ray' (not actually real x-rays) technology being employed in recent years is very sophisticated and is actually properly described as Time of Flight Neutron Diffraction (ToF-ND). This is a non-destructive technique that allows for the characterisation of the micro-structure of archaeological artefacts to be established using the power of the neutrons to penetrate through several centimetres of metal.

 

There are countless research papers and archaeological reports going back over the past 30 years that explore the broader subject of ferrous technology in Asian, in particular China, Korea and Japan. A familiarity with present academic understanding of the subject will be enormously helpful in building a more evidence based understanding of the uses of iron or steel casting in Japan.

 

In addition I would direct interested readers to the 1712 encyclopaedia the Wakan Sansai Zue, itself derived from earlier Chinese encyclopaedias and expanded to reflect the Japanese context. This comprises 105 volumes (or subject headings) in 81 books and took 20 years to compile. It's regarded as the definitive document of the period.  Edo period technology, metallurgy in particular, is well documented. Spoiler alert, there is no chapter on the sophisticated technology of tosogu casting in ferrous metal.

[Spartancrest]

In reply to Lee Bray

"catastrophic failure means the tsuba falls off completely, leaving a large space with loose seppa and habaki.

With softer materials, I doubt they would break so completely and I think the core, or seppa dai if you will, will remain intact and keep your tsuka tight and useable."

 

I have done some testing of my own, by remounting one of my swords without a tsuba- retaining the seppa and habaki. In the event of catastrophic tsuba loss, the sword remains completely usable and if the tsuka is made correctly remains tight. The loss of the mekugi however would have different consequences. 

This is a little off the subject of cast tsuba but physical experimentation rather than what we think will happen often shows better results.

 

Dale