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Tosa Kuni Ju Myochin Munetoshi?

Bugyotsuji

By Bugyotsuji
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Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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Can anyone tell me anything about this tsuba or the creator?

 

9 cm high x 8cm across, it looks to me like 大　the Kanji for Dai. The Mimi is quite a bit thicker than the seppa area. Actually it does not seem to have a seppa-dai per se. (Maybe a faint outline on the reverse?)

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Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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take a look at Gai Sô Shi ( The Robert E. Haynes Study Collection of Japanese sword fittings )

 

described as rare cast tsuba from teapot maker

 

http://www.nihonart.de/en_produkte_gaisoshi_bilder.php?&page_number=42

 

Hmmm... teapot maker!!! :lol: :clap: ...very similar, although that seems to be the reverse. No Mei? Where is the description that you quote? I wonder how old it is?

 

Now you've got me looking around. I have found evidence that Munetoshi was one of about 10 Tsuba-ko working for Yamauchi in Tosa.

 

http://www.bidders.co.jp/item/148424519

Lee Bray Mentor

Lee Bray

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Page 167 of the above book.

As Thierry described above, cast iron plate made by a tetsubin-shi - caster of iron tea kettles.

"It has an inscription: Tosa Kuni Ju Myochin Munetoshi, and was taken from his original work."

"Unfortunately the example by Munetoshi has not been recorded so far."

 

Apparently casting was very expensive due to the amount of charcoal needed.

It goes on to say, "Not enough attention has been paid to cast iron fittings. This is one of the best examples found so far."

Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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What possible merit could there be in casting? One imagines it would be brittle... ?

 

So mine must be an example of a casting (not the original, :lol: ) but how would I confirm that it is cast, I wonder?

cspage Collaborator

cspage

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Here are a couple of tsubas from online websites that hold a similarity to the tsuba of topic. Just FYI.

The first is a tsuba posted on Fred Geyer's website, http://www.swordsandtsuba.com/home.html

 

The second is from George's website and contains the following description in the form of a note written from one enthusiast to another, as follows:

 

“Dear George,

Remember this calligraphic tsuba ? Digging through my study collection of photos, I ran across this picture. I coveted it back in the heyday of the old Nanka Token Kai but it traded at the price of a good katana. I think it went off to Europe. Besides the rare, even unique, shape and the quality of (Myochin?) work, it had a practical aspect as it formed a stand so the katana would not roll when set down. There was some speculation that it was in such superb condition because the character "Oh" or "Dai" (big) was the first character in the name of a Tokugawa adversary and thus "Politically Incorrect" to wear.

Regards,

Jack”

http://www.arco-iris.com/George/dai_tsuba.htm

 

 

I don't know if there is any real relationship other than the rough shape similarities, but it might be of interest.

 

Colin

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Marius Grand Master

Marius

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rare cast tsuba from teapot maker

 

I would be grateful if someone here could elaborate on this highly interesting cast iron tsuba.

 

Mr. Haynes is an authority one cannot ignore, and the popular opinion is that cast iron tsuba were made as Meiji tourist items.

 

So this tsuba brings up an opportunity for an interesting discussion - have cast iron tsuba been produced before Meiji? Have they been designed as a fully functional sword guards? Are there any other examples of such tsuba?

Lee Bray Mentor

Lee Bray

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Is it allowable to show a picture of the book page?

I wrote most of the text from the page in my previous post. Robert Haynes also refers to the design as the kanji Dai.

Toryu2020 Grand Master

Toryu2020

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Oh no, not a "Dai monji tsuba"

Piers san your box says "Hi monji tsuba" 火文字鍔

"Hi" means fire.火

DOH! we see what we expect to see I guess... :bang:

-t

Soshin Grand Master

Soshin

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I would be grateful if someone here could elaborate on this highly interesting cast iron tsuba.

 

Mr. Haynes is an authority one cannot ignore, and the popular opinion is that cast iron tsuba were made as Meiji tourist items.

 

So this tsuba brings up an opportunity for an interesting discussion - have cast iron tsuba been produced before Meiji? Have they been designed as a fully functional sword guards? Are there any other examples of such tsuba?

 

Hi Mariuszk,

 

I am going to abstain from this discussion for the most part after getting in trouble on another forum. Only thing I can say that this tsuba like the Myochin school tsuba I would love to own regardless of the fact that they are cast iron. Comparing these late Edo Period cast iron tsuba to Meiji Period tourist items is a bit like comparing Fuji Apples and Crab Apples. :D

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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Is it allowable to show a picture of the book page?

I wrote most of the text from the page in my previous post. Robert Haynes also refers to the design as the kanji Dai.

 

If Haynes too referred to the design as 大 then he is not totally infallible! 8)

 

In the meantime I have read and reread this thread, but I am not yet 100% sure what was given to me the other day.

 

One person here became quite angry when I suggested it might be cast 鋳物 (imono). Perhaps he thought I was being ungrateful(?)... when I am solely interested in the story behind it.

 

It seems there was a mid-Edo worker in Kyoto (Yamashiro, Yoshihisa) who made cast Tsuba:

http://www.tsubanomiyako.jp/SHOP/T-056.html

 

PS A tsuba collector friend has just seen it. Tapping tells him what the material is. Yes, there were definitely cast iron tsuba in the Edo Period, he kept repeating. Just as there were cast Koshirae parts. Although the Sekigane suggests someone fitted it to a sword, he says it will look better as a single display item. Lack of a mold line suggests use of a single cast that was broken up to reveal the tsuba.

  • 2 months later...
Ford Hallam Grand Master

Ford Hallam

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Piers,

 

PS A tsuba collector friend has just seen it. Tapping tells him what the material is. Yes, there were definitely cast iron tsuba in the Edo Period, he kept repeating. Just as there were cast Koshirae parts. Although the Sekigane suggests someone fitted it to a sword, he says it will look better as a single display item. Lack of a mold line suggests use of a single cast that was broken up to reveal the tsuba.

 

"Tapping tells him what the material is" :rotfl: he he...a friend of Uri Geller, no doubt ;)

 

"Lack of a mold line suggests use of a single cast that was broken up to reveal the tsuba."

 

or; any seam line left by a two part mould was subsequently filed off, an easy enough process. If the tsuba was cast from a wax model, which itself was created from a mould taken of the original, someone needs to explain how this was done using pre-modern technologies like rubber moulds and injection waxes.

 

btw; most casting in the jewellery trade and bronze sculpture trade today is cast into moulds that are destroyed to release the model. The model would have been created in wax, either as a handmade one off or from a rubber mould which will have seam lines visible. These seam lines are then to be seen even where the mould was one piece.

Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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My problem is that I was presented with this Tsuba with great and solemn ceremony. My subsequent suggestion that it might be cast iron was met with derision and anger by someone I otherwise respect. He seemed to think that I was being ungrateful to the original giver, looking a gift-horse in the mouth? I quickly shut my mouth. :lipssealed:

 

So, what can I do with it? I can display it, or hide it, or perhaps give it to someone, but not much else. It is surely a good example of something, though! 8)

Ford Hallam Grand Master

Ford Hallam

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A couple of years back I was invited for tea with Princess Takamado, she asked to meet me and to see my work :oops: . While there she showed me a tsuba that had been given to her as a gift by a wealthy American collector. You can imagine my inner conflict when it became immediately obvious that it was a modern cast fake, complete with dodgy gilding. Needless to say I kept my thoughts to myself, although my Japanese friend who was with us and who's known the princess a lot longer than I said later that I ought to have simply explained to her what it was and that she's have preferred to know. Not all collectors are that interested in the truth though... ;)

 

The really odd thing was that the next day I saw pretty much the same fake in a store near the Yoyogi sword museum.

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Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

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Lee, what would you have said?

 

PS Keep it diplomatic, but let her know that you know what she suspects, but you are too polite to say it. :glee:

 

PS You have five seconds to formulate your answer...

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