naginata

[Cello]

Hi, I know very little if anything about the value of naginata and their mounts?Can anyone give me an Idea Of what would be a good price for this or one or a similar one??Not sure how to date these as well it's unsigned and seller thinks it's from the 1400's.It has one or two ware I could see in the pics.

thanks

 

 

[Mark]

size and shape suggest Shinto. If an average Shinto naginata by no one special with ware' and mediocre mounts probably $1400-1800............ my opinion based on pictures and description

[Cello]

Thanks Mark....Also Do you know if naginata are not as popular for collecting because of their being less available,or because the are not generally forged to the same standards as other nihonto?

[estcrh]

Thanks Mark....Also Do you know if naginata are not as popular for collecting because of their being less available,or because the are not generally forged to the same standards as other nihonto?

Very few naginata are for sale at any one time compared to swords. Most do not have an original shaft and many are not even in shirasaya. The ones I have seen for sale that were reasonably priced get sold. I have a couple, I think they look great in a collection along with yari. Being able to actually hold one of these weapons is an experience that few people ever get to do.

[Cello]

I'm really considering buying this one but I'm not sure what to offer?? He's looking for 2500.00I would like to get it for less...He also has a forged rope cutter arrow tip and quiver with signed arrow.I have no idea what the arrow tip and rest are worth either!

[Mark]

if you are buying it to keep it then the market value does not matter that much, pay what you are happy to, i have bought plenty of swords for more than they might have brought on the market because i wanted them, it came down to what was willing to pay to own them

[estcrh]

I'm really considering buying this one but I'm not sure what to offer?? He's looking for 2500.00I would like to get it for less...He also has a forged rope cutter arrow tip and quiver with signed arrow.I have no idea what the arrow tip and rest are worth either!

In that case can you provide more pictures or either item, plenty of people here who can give you a thumbs up or down but not without some more pictures. I am sure if anyone knows of a better deal they will let you know also.

[Jean]

Yanone:

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/yanone/main.html

 

Naginata : Not more than 1500$. Seems to have been shortened referring to the Naginata hi ending at nakago level. Seems equally post Koto.

[sanjuro]

This specimen is almost certainly machi okuri, since the short hi ends beneath the habaki rather than before it. I strongly suspect later than koto also, despite the sellers claim of 15th century. (Wrong shape).

Whereas a good Sengoku Jidai naginata will fetch prices commensurate with swords of the same period and condition, this one, almost certainly a shinto example, based only on what can be seen in the photographs posted, would be worth around the $1500 to $2000 US mark at most. Better pictures would reveal much more and make estimates easier to justify.

 

At the end of the day one must ask "Do I like/want this piece and what am I prepared to pay to obtain it, regardless of the price being asked?"

[Cello]

Erick,Jean and Keith Thanks for the great info....I guess the board has saved me some money once again!I'll check out the link you posted Jean for some comparison..I'll post some addt'l pictures later, but probably a mute issue since it seemes it's nothing special and I don't think the seller is going to drop the price to what is suggested.But I'll post more pictures so I can learn from you guys.

[paulb]

Marcello,

picking up on your earlier question in more detail regarding quality and price. There is as much variation on quality and price in Naginata as any other form of sword. At one end you have the late versions of exaggerated form rather like the one in your first post and which appear to have mainly been for parade purposes. At the other you can have some exquisite works. There are smiths who truly excelled in making naginata. In the Shinto period the Mishina Smith Masatoshi made beautiful Naginata, Hizen Tadayoshi made them although realtively few those that exist are of fantastic quality. Koto smiths from all schools made excellent examples. many of the high quality koto blades were subsequently modified and carried as either wakazashi or katana. A nagamaki naoshi blade by the Bizen smith Unji is on display in the Royal armouries and is a stunning example of this 14th century smiths work. Below I have posted two others from the late kamakura and early nambokucho periods which exhibit equally fine work. The first by Sadatsuna, the son of Naotsuna (one of Masamunes 10 famous pupils, at least on some lists!) The other an early Shikkake work.

Compare the blade under discussion. The Sadatsuna was not a great deal more money than is being asked for the one you posted.

[sanjuro]

May I raise a small point of accuracy here. Somewhat germaine to the example raised by PaulB. I believe there is no such thing in traditional blade configurations as a 'nagamaki naoshi'. There is unokubi zukuri and kanmuri otoshi. There is also shobu zukuri. Apart from unokubi zukuri style, genuine nagamaki were also made in shinogi zukuri and also in hira zukuri form, so there is really no one style that can be accurately isolated as a 'nagamaki naoshi'. I realise that in todays parlance nagamaki naoshi is often referred to and understood as a type. But common usage does not change the fact that there is in reality and tradition, apparently no such animal. The royal armouries examples are basically unokubi zukuri blades I believe, but the references I can find of them in my own data are rather old, somewhat sketchy and not too clear on the matter, and its a little late to google off in all directions. John or Paul has access to the royal armouries I think, so I expect this smoke signal will be spotted by them. :D

 

On a matter of accuracy I'm quite happy to be corrected if I am in error in any of this. We are all in the 'learning' category after all :D

[paulb]

Hi Keith,

Sorry I think I may have been less than clear. The Unji is in the Armouries, the other two are from a private collection. The Unji was originally part of the A.Z. Freeman collection and formed part of the group dontated to the Armouries by the family of Deryk Ingham. I have attached a copy of the image from the Sotheby's catalogue. This sword was named Ishi-Giri (Stone Cutter) by A.Z. Freeman after he dropped in on to a stone fireplace. When he first looked he thought he had chipped two inches out of the ha but on examination found the blade had sliced a piece out of the stone!

Regarding shape, My understanding is that the term naoshi simply means shortened or changed. therefore a nagamaki which as you say can be any number of shapes becomes naoshi when it is altered to fit in to either daito or shoto mounts. likewise naginata/naginata-naoshi.

This shape change generally requires shortening of the nakago and removal of at least part of the dramatic upward sweep of the kissaki. This is why the majority of naoshi sword boshi have no or very little turn back. see what you think of Ishi- Giri

[sanjuro]

Hi Paul.

 

Ok...... clear on the references you gave. I wondered why there were two missing blades in my data. Makes sense now. So with all naoshi types we are dealing with an altered blade, and yet we see some blades that still have the turn back in the ha at the tip and appear to have been deliberately made in the style. Is this a case of the swordsmith reacting to demand for this style do you think?

 

Man, that Ishi-Giri is one helluva blade! I would have thought ( and may still be correct) that this was originally a kanmuri otoshi blade but for the boshi that has no curve and no turn back in the ha. Still it remains spectacular after all these years and the alteration to the boshi etc....... I would give one gonad and the remainder of my sex life for a blade like this :D

[paulb]

you could always make the offer to the armouries, but I doubt they would be tempted :D

[sanjuro]

An unfortunately low offer eh? But a measure of my admiration of the blade, to be sure. :lol:

[drbvac]

I always liked the look of them regardless if it was the weapon for the women. I bought this one a while ago and love it ! Dotanuki

 

 

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Nice one Doc. Nagasa ?

[drbvac]

Nagasa 46.3 cm Nakago 47.1 cm - nice beefy!

[watsonmil]

For someone who pulled teeth for a living, .... all that laughing gas has not damaged your taste. Very nice Naginata ! Thank you for showing it off. Do you have the Koshira by chance ??

... Ron Watson

[drbvac]

I wish - No it is in shirasaya. Mei is Dotanuki Matahachi - 1573-1592

 

I really like the hamon

 

[sanjuro]

I always liked the look of them regardless if it was the weapon for the women.

 

Lets be fair here.... Naginata were not considered a weapon only for women until the Edo period when they became somewhat lighter and smaller in the blade. They were the favoured weapon of the warrior monks for many generations and a man with a naginata on a battlefield was a man to be avoided if possible, (or if not avoided then at least treated with a very healthy respect). It was very much a warriors weapon up to the end of the Sengoku Jidai.

 

This Dotanuki (By the way - I Love it!!!!!) is way too large for a woman to wield, and I suspect it was intended for a warrior (or a really big butch bloodthirsty lady with a very bad attitude - and there werent too many of them in Feudal Japan).

[Justin]

I bought this from Tsuruta-san a few years ago. It is a beast of a thing by Suisinshi Masatsugu (Masahide's grandson). Dated 1842. Nagasa - 50.5cm. It is amazing to hold. The shirasaya has been reinforced with hardwood around the opening to handle the weight.

[DirkO]

Here's a Echizen no Daijo Fujiwara Kunitsugu I used to own (sold it a good year ago, sacrifices must be made if you only have a small collection) - nagasa 53cm, but I especially liked it for it's unusual shape

 

[kusunokimasahige]

Gorgeous Naginata, all of them ! I especially like the one with the Varja in gold !

 

Keith is right on the spot, Naginata were not a woman's only weapon. They were feared on the battlefield, and the choice weapon of the SouHei. (apart from guns). Who does not remember Benkei and other monks and even samurai wielding the Naginata with terror.

 

http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index. ... inatajutsu

 

KM

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I know this naginata very well. Not an outstanding work but an unusual tsukurikomi.

[sanjuro]

Naginata have always been something of an interest of mine, and this thread seems to have brought one or three extremely interesting and fine examples to light. One wonders how many others are lurking out there in the hands of our members, and would it be worth the excercise to ask our membership to signify their interest in these fascinating weapons and possibly show us the examples they have.

Some of us it seems, harbour an interest in this fascinating variety of nihonto, and there has been little exclusive discussion of them in past topics. So I ask 'are you a naginataphile?' If so, then step forth.

 

Mods: If you think this should be a seperate topic then please make it so, its just that in this thread there has been an emergence which I would like to explore, and it is such a great springboard. :D My apologies to Marcello the original poster..... no hijack intended.

[rkg]

Aside from their cool shape and the acres of hada they have to study/enjoy, naginata are interesting because they're difficult to make and really show off how good (or bad) a swordsmith is.

I think these pieces with the sharpened back side were a late change for them so they could be used more like yari. Here's a couple I have that are made this way (sorry for the old pics -

maybe I'll have time before too long to reshoot so they can be better appreciated - I still don't know about restoring the Fukuro one - it apparently was never mounted (or final polished), and

I don't know whether to leave it as-is, have it fully polished, or just have one side polished)

 

http://home.teleport.com/~rkg/photos/ku ... blade1.jpg

 

http://home.teleport.com/~rkg/photos/ub ... verall.jpg

 

Decent ones aren't that hard to find (you kind of have to ask around, as it seems most online sites don't put them up anymore (must have gotten tired of them sitting)), but here's a couple

that aren't too bad :-)

 

http://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/T1 ... _PUP_E.htm

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/sale/10568.html

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[Justin]

This one is also very nice. A little shorter than the ones above.

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/naginata/06194.html

 

This has been sitting here for awhile and the photos are a bit old. It would be very nice in the hand I bet. Not a bad price for a Naotane blade either. I am surprised someone hasn't picked this up.

[drbvac]

I am glad to hear that the earlier blades were not just used by women and can appreciate the fact that one of these on a 4' shaft would do tremendous damage. I love them all and the one I have is extremely sharp and would really hat to see anyone struck anywhere with it. The added reach would demand a swordsman be very proficient to ward off an attack by naginata weilding samurai.