So it's Gimei? What do we do with it?

[Ted Tenold]

George, et al, I've encountered several gimei gendaito. I encountered one gimei of a Minatogawa smith in Tokyo. Here's one I encountered recently of Yasunori (aka: Yasutoku). My belief is that this is a contemporary gimei, meaning in the catagory you mentioned of new-made, signed and aged to look like 1912-1945 smiths.

 

In addition to inconsistencies in the mei, this one shows evidence of having had a mei removed from both sides of the nakago. Anyone care to note another red flat other than the mei? Hint: The sword is dated January, 1935.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Furthermore, here is a small excerpt from the NBTHK/American Branch Exhibit booklet from the Tampa Exhibition in February this year.

 

In the late 1960’s through the late 1970’s, Gendaito could regularly be purchased for $100 to $300 each. In many cases, dealers with no real knowledge of them would ask $300 to $500 as a general pricing, so experience collectors would pick out the good pieces and leave the poorer quality Gendaito and Showa blades . As the knowledge base surrounding Gendaito has expanded with the availability of new research publications, the demand has increased and accordingly, also the prices Gendai works achieve in the marketplace. As a result of this momentum, they have regrettably (and predictably) also become the target of fraud. While a forgery of a Gendaito by Ichiryushi Nagamitsu would have been impractical (and unprofitable to a forger) 20 years ago, it is now a reality due to the prices a genuine one can realize in the market, and the more infrequently they are encountered as collectors hold them in collections. Therefore, the time has come to scrutinize the signatures on Gendaito, and compare the work of the sword to that of its alleged maker. Recently, a range of blatantly crude to very convincing fakes have surfaced of swords by Gassan Sadakazu and Gassan Sadakatsu, Yasukuni Shrine smiths, Minatogawa Shrine smiths, Ichiryushi Nagamitsu, Chounsai Emura, and others. Collectors must stay vigilant in their efforts because forgers are opportunistic. Collectors must also remember that the very information referenced in books, magazines, oshigata, and on line images, also provide a forger with the same information with which they will use to fine tune their skill of deception. Certain wartime arsenal stamps (such as “sho” and “seki” stamps) are being removed from industrially produced swords to falsely lead the prospective buyer to believe that the absence of any stamp indicates a hand made piece. Bob Benson recalls an incident he had regarding this kind of activity, which illustrates why collectors should observe them carefully;

 

“Thirty years ago while visiting a dealer with swords for sale, I noticed he had many sword that had a weld spot of metal over the location of where the Showa stamp would have been. He said he was using a welder to place a small dot of steel over the arsenal marks. Then he would file it flat and added yasurime and rust. This way it would not show and indentation which would be a sign of something having been removed.”

 

Even the ubiquitous “star stamp” (a five point star struck by the Army Arsenal official indicating the blade was accepted for purchase from a traditional smith), which has been perhaps the most recognizable mark for a traditionally made wartime production sword, is reportedly being found added to swords that were of industrial production. It should be emphasized that the absence of any stamp neither verifies nor discounts a sword as handmade. Not all arsenal factory produced swords were marked, nor were all handmade swords marked. The work in the blade and its characteristics must qualify its origins in this regard and the question of “Why would anyone forge a signature of a Gendaito maker?” is no longer rhetorical. Today’s environment dictates that Gendaito be scrutinized in every manner as one would a sword of any other period and particularly if it is maker of notoriety, or one of popular interest. Additionally, the difficulties for swordsmiths to make a living in their trade drove some to supplement their income by making swords with fake signatures of every period thus adding to huge number of gimei swords already in existence. Again, Bob Benson recalls an account of such a case;

 

“Modern swordsmiths are only allowed to register two swords (or three short swords or a combination of 1 long and two short) per month. This makes it quite difficult to make a living as a swordsmith. A smith can make as many swords as he wants, but he has to destroy any he has made that exceeds 24 per year. In the 1960’s to circumvent this, a smith could make a sword for a dealer that had a Torokusho (registration certificate) but no accompanying blade. A blade would be made to the exact specifications shown on the Torokusho and could be sold easily having no connection to the swordsmith who made it. At that time, signing the sword as a Gendaito had no value, so most were Shinto or Shinshinto signatures that were added. I knew a dealer that had a garden full of blades just made with false signatures [added], stuck in the ground covering the nakago to produce rust. At that time a Torokusho could be had for 10,000 yen to certain dealers who [then] had swords made to match.”

 

Clearly, gimei swords remain a clear and present threat to the collecting community, and combined with the forgeries of Kanteisho that continue to be produced to this day, the modern collector must hone their individual recognition skills to a higher degree and avoid placing their trust solely in documentation. On-line auctions list swords allegedly made by master smiths from every period. Many of them are accompanied by older style papers that are also forgeries, advertised with prices that appear unbelievably low for a papered work by a smith of high caliber. A collector’s knowledge base, experience, and precautionary practices, are the first line of defense against fraud.

[sanjuro]

From a certain point of view, any blade that has been changed in any way is technically a fraud. Aside from changes made by polishing or machi okuri/suriage, which are acceptable. One could argue that an O suriage often removes the original signature, thus creating a mumei blade. Or, that a gimei blade that has had the signature removed is a false mumei blade and cannot be legitimately pronounced ubu.

 

The intent behind the changes is what constitutes a fraud, in deliberately attempting to mislead a prospective purchaser. It is unfortunate that the market and demand for nihonto also creates in its wake a market for unscrupulous practices, yet this is the nature of the world in which we live, and fakers and frauds make more money from the buying public than genuine and honourable dealers who handle only the best possible merchandise. Even those who are expert in this field, dealers among them, are at risk of being fooled by an ever increasingly sophisticated supply of cleverly faked blades with spurious signatures. When the swordsmiths themselves are obliged to indulge in such practices, it is a lamentable state of affairs indeed.

 

It makes ubu mumei blades very attractive. (if you can find a genuine one).

[george trotter]

Thanks Ted,

You have covered everything I was asking about. You have jogged my memory again about a star stamped blade that came to notice in the past few months...it just didn't look right...can't remember the mei now, but probably one of the "new wave" of fakes. I fully understand the difficulty of a tosho trying to make a living with this silly production restriction...can't blame a chap for quietly filling a gap (might be what I have with my Hosokawa "Nidai Masayoshi" blade...pretty sure gendai, but which era Meiji/Taisho/Showa?).

Although I go up to Japan reasonably often, I never buy blades there, and as few dealers have examples of the type of blades I like and usually won't talk on the subject (most are quite dismissive of the field...just classing them as "we don't deal in gunto...illegal") I can't get a good picture of the scene there. Whether a brushoff or whether they are truly ignorant of the field I don't know for sure. Anyway, as there are still sleepers out there waiting to be found, I still have hope for my future gendaito collecting here.

Regards and thanks,

George.

[Henry Wilson]

That is a rather convincing gimei Ted. The hi would have made me suspicious as well, as Yasutoku did not do hi much (if any) I think.

[David Flynn]

Nakago jiri is also wrong.

[Henry Wilson]

David

 

Well spotted!!!! It should at more of an angle I think.

[David Flynn]

The nakago should be funagata and the jiri,Shiribari (slightly rounded). He used this type of Nakago, when his nephew, became Yasunori, so the two woundn't be confused.

[cabowen]

Actually, smiths in the Yasunori (靖徳) group used a kuri-jiri. In Showa 10, when his nephew Kotani Yasunori became a smith,Yasunori the elder started making nakago in the kiji-momo shape (not funa-gata)....Of course this does not necessarily apply to blades made privately away from the Yasukuni Jinja.

 

Fakes of WWII smiths are going to continue and the problem will most likely only get worse. These blades have long been ignored by the mainstream and now the forgers hold the upper hand. Kantei-sho from most shinsa groups should also be looked at closely as most of these groups are not up to speed on WWII era smiths and thus this is a blind spot that will be exploited....

[peterqu]

H Chris,Thank you for your most interesting commentary.In one of your earlier entries on this topic you mentioned that the tastes and preferences in collecting in Japan have an established history.I would be most grateful if you would expand upon that statement so that those of us who are interested may be guided by the approach of the serious Japanese collector. Regards,Peter

[cabowen]

.In one of your earlier entries on this topic you mentioned that the tastes and preferences in collecting in Japan have an established history.I would be most grateful if you would expand upon that statement so that those of us who are interested may be guided by the approach of the serious Japanese collector. Regards,Peter

 

In very general and ideal terms, it can be summed up rather easily: first of all, clearly recognizable as the work of a known and highly rated smith, preferably Koto, ubu, preferably signed. In polish.

 

Koto can be unsigned and with some minor flaws, Shinto and later must be signed, ubu and with few if any flaws.

 

One can look at the swords that have been awarded Juyo as a guide.....Also the NBTHK shinsa criteria offer some insight as well.

 

There are certain groups that seem to be in favor, and those that are not. Takada, Seki and derivatives, country work, etc., are mostly seen as second class or worse.

 

One quickly realizes that to be a serious collector in the Japanese tradition requires one to be seriously wealthy. Many Japanese sword enthusiasts own very few if any swords. I met many at monthly kantei meetings who told me they could not afford to own the type of swords they coveted. They also said owning such swords was a heavy responsibility that they really didn't want. Many said they could see and handle the best swords at kantei meetings without any of the responsibilities or worries of ownership. These people were very serious students who didn't need to own swords to appreciate them.... Quality seems to be preferred to quantity. I found their attitude refreshing in contrast to the "must own more" accumulator mentality I often encounter in the West where you often find collectors with 50, 100, 200 sword collections, most of which are mediocre at best.

[george trotter]

I have to agree about the heavy responsibility of owning swords. I have felt this myself (in my own modest way). While never having the responsibility of high quality koto treasures such as you allude to, I have owned good swords. In a previous life I owned a

Shodai Soshu Ju Tsunahiro tanto (TSU 253, K210).

A good Kanabo Masazane (MAS 855, K393).

Shinto by Shimada Mikawa no Kami Sadasuke (SAD 650, S388).

Dewa no Kami Mitsuhira (MIT 46, S421).

Echizen sandai Yasutsugu YAS 962, S292).

And a number of average shinshinto and good gendaito. There were a number of reasons I let them go but a VERY important reason was the "Duty of Care"...it was just getting too big with about 40 blades. I sold them all except one gendaito by Okishiba Yoshisada of Osaka...I still have it and love it. Since my retirement a few years ago, the gendaito have increased by another three. I was also given a "wakizashi" of Bizen late Kamakura (looks more like a miniature tachi)...so, again they increase. Probably, I will deal with this problem by parting with a couple over time as I come across another RJT or some such that i just HAVE to have, but stay around this number. What I am saying is, they must be looked after properly, so for me, better to stay "manageable". Better to have a few that you really enjoy caring for and admiring, than a big pile that become a chore.

Geo.

PS, and one gimei of nidai Hosokawa Masayoshi that I actually like and am researching for fun.

[paulb]

As a slight aside but I hope relevent to the points Chris made I believe the quantity over quality approach has more to do with experience than nationality. I suggest that most people when starting out accumulate anything that has some association with the subject of their interest . I know in the early 80's my approach was to grab anyhting that had something to do with Japanese swords and/ or military history. I measured my success in the number of pieces I had with little regard to the comparative quality.

As you learn more your view becomes more focussed and possibly refined. In any school of collecting it is a common theme to have fewer better good pieces rather than many mediocre.

I now have half the number of swords I had 3 years ago. For the right pieces I would be happy to halve that number again.

I share the view about responsibility. These items have existed through many many generations and have been cared for by each. The thought of passing on a blade in poorer condition than I received it weighs heavily at times. I wonder how such renowned collectors as Dr. Compton dealt with these concerns?

While happy to ultimately have a collection of one sword, the same cannot be said about books which I still accumulate with vigour in the hope that in coming years I can make some sense of the subject.

regards

Paul

[peterqu]

I find Chris`s response to my question about the preferred Japanese method of collecting and Paul`s latest entry most interesting.After collecting for about seven years and no particular speciality other than a large collection of daisho and an assortment of good quality Shinto blades I think it fair to say that I had no real direction. This came to a head at the last DTI when my Japanese polisher whom I had known for three years and has only recently invited me to address him by his first name sat me down and told me that he preferred to polish Kamakura blades followed by Nanbokucho etc.During the period I have known him we have become friends and it was obvious to me that there was a message in this statement. Questions were asked and discussion followed.Basically the advice given to me was along the lines of what Chris has stated and I was told in the most tactful manner that rather than buy three blades of what he regarded as mediocre quality, I should buy a good Kamakura blade.I took his advice and have reduced my collection and will continue to do so. I have also now bought some high quality Koto blades and feel that I am starting to scratch the surface in the direction I should be going.I am told that this is part of the evolutionary process followed by many collectors such as Paul. Regards,

[kusunokimasahige]

Very interesting statements indeed.

 

For me it is much simpler. At one stage i would like to own one beautiful katana, one wakizashi or one daisho, preferably Koto.

One Tanto in great condition. Preferably all with pristine koshirae.

 

One Naginata, two yari, one jumonji, one omi, preferably Koto. One Yumi and 50-100 arrows, of which about 25 have yanone.

 

One beautiful and good quality set of armour, original, edo period or sengoku jidai.

 

That way i have one full set of arms and armour a Samurai could have owned during the long period they were the ruling class of Japan.

 

Smith names do not matter, i dont care for names that much. Polish does matter. Hamon preferably wild and gunome, not hiro sugu-ha, but if a sword is great and has it i wouldnt care too much.

 

Period clothing and artefacts of various sorts.

A sashimono. A Jingasa, preferably bajo-gasa type.

 

Tsuba should go on the swords not in some bako or on the wall for me, though i just bought a nice wakizashi one with a chicken which i will post when i have received it. (low-end)

 

The rest of my Samurai belongings like armour etc. will be replica for re-enactments, high end and high quality, and of use like the Yari i obtained recently.

 

Collecting all that will take me years on a teacher's salary. And that is the joy of collecting to me.

 

Not more more more, but nice, nicer and even more nice...

 

KM

[sanjuro]

And there we have it...... a shining example of stage one accumulation syndrome....... Be patient, it will moderate and perhaps one day find focus.

[kusunokimasahige]

stage one accumulation syndrome

 

 

Well, every collector is different, i am just crazy...

You try to get focused when officially having Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Syndrome... xD

 

KM

[sanjuro]

Henke

 

If you buy only half of that wish list on ebay you will probably get Birthday & Christmas cards from paypal. My guess is that your tastes get more than a little tempered by experience before that happens.

[kusunokimasahige]

Keith, dont think for one minute i would buy a sword from ebay.... I would go to Aoi or others, and that also goes for the other weapons..

 

A gusoku replica would come from a Japanese manufacturer like http://www.samurai-store.com/armor/

 

The tiny tidbits i find on ebay, like the sakazuki haidai set and my kamishimo with which i am very pleased are just nice finds...

 

 

KM

 

Back on topic: Gimei, how important is it...

[Stephen]

answer to OP....Send them to me!!!

[Kevin]

At one stage i would like to own one beautiful katana, one wakizashi or one daisho, preferably Koto. . . .

 

Keith, dont think for one minute i would buy a sword from ebay....

 

Ah, so you missed the Hozon Nakajima Rai that I had on Ebay that's just received Tokubetsu Hozon papers? :D

 

Not everything on Ebay is rubbish.

 

Kevin

[kusunokimasahige]

Well, i did not miss that one

 

I miss the BUDGET !

 

KM

[Kevin]

Well, i did not miss that one

 

I miss the BUDGET !

 

[tease]Ah, so you would have bought *that* sword on Ebay if you'd had the budget![/tease] :D

 

Unfortunately it isn't going to be any cheaper now it has Tokubetsu Hozon papers.

 

Kevin

[cabowen]

There are always more swords......

[george trotter]

Ah...always more swords. That's the trouble, the need for a fix makes us keep buying, and as they were all bought because we like them, we can't let the earlier purchases go...so the pile keeps growing.

Of my small gendaito collection I would only now consider parting with my recently purchased (probably gendai) gimei of nidai Hosokawa Masayoshi...not because it is poor work, but because my research so far can't place it confidently with one of the 6 later dai, or their cousins, or the guy next door (I hate not knowing all about the smith who made my sword).

But, having only modest numbers, I can allow my pile to grow just a little more.... :lol:

Geo.

PS has anyone else knowingly bought a gimei because they liked it? and if so, is this a sin?

[sanjuro]

Yes I have knowingly bought a gimei blade... more than once. IMHO the blade comes first. At the end of the day I guess it depends on whether you collect swords or signatures, as to whether or not it would be a sin. At worst call it mildly deviant behaviour, enjoy the blade for what it is, and let it go at that. :D

A sword is what it is. A signed blade is nice but not necessary if the blade is a good one. If a blade is good and it is unfortunately gimei then it can be removed and repatinated. A good signature on a bad blade whether it is gimei or not, is not worth having.

[paulb]

Yes me too I am afraid! Image below. Signd Rai Kunitoshi which it isnt. I really liked the mid Kamakura shape, the incredibly tight hada and austere suguha. I submitted it to the NTHK for shinsa to get an opinion and they attributed it to Tegai Oei period, so a later copy of a style popular 100 years earlier.

I still love the shape and the hada which sparkles with ji-nie.

[george trotter]

Yes I have knowingly bought a gimei blade... more than once. IMHO the blade comes first. At the end of the day I guess it depends on whether you collect swords or signatures, .

Well said Keith...my feelings exactly. A good blade is a good blade.

Fortunately, I collect gendaito to 1945...so far, the gimei are not a big problem...especially so as I don't buy from dealers/Japan etc, but usually from local veteran sources. As to removing gimei and re-patinating, I think this is a reasonable approach, but in my Masayoshi situation, I am still "optimistic" that I may pin my blade to a line smith or a school smith and until I can eliminate both possibilities I would not contemplate removing and repatinating...also, it would not be an easy task as the tang is slim and elegant and has a deeply punched Hosokawa hot stamp...might look strange afterwards.

Good comments...and nice Rai/Tegai Paul...good to know I am not a lone deviant.

Regards,

Geo.

[sanjuro]

Geo.

 

I stand in awe of your tenacity with regard to pinning down that Masayoshi. A man who is willing to brave hell and highwater and even Reinhard, deserves to succeed.

[george trotter]

Hi Keith,

yes, tenacious (woof).

I am going through all the lines of Hosokawa Ke since nidai...of course, I will not be able to prove my finding (even assuming I find a likely smith as the true maker)...but that is the fun of collecting. Not only do we get a blade we like, we get to do study on it also...all part of the fun.

BTW, speaking of study and lines, did I mention that I just got a new book on swordsmith schools?...among many others, it has the Hosokawa smiths to Meiji and I can easily add the last couple myself and then search for details of work and mei from as many of them as I can find...might find a clue to point to one of them being a likely candidate for my gimei.

I hesitate to name a book here as my library and/or reading skills have drawn extremely bizarre comments recently , but other members might find this of some value...it has koto, shinto, shinshinto schools.

Markus Sesko, "Genealogies and Schools of Japanese Swordsmiths" 2010 Books on Demand Gmbh, Norderstedt isbn 978-3-8391-8347-2.

I got this online from amazon.fr for 34.00 euros (softcover).

Except for the German intro, it is 124 pages in English.

 

Regards,

Geo.

[Brian]

George,

Markus is a member here.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7792

His knowledge and publications are highly recommended, and as you have seen, his books are well worth acquiring.

 

Brian