Tachi... Fake or real?

[inyopc]

Hello to All,

 

I inherited a sword from my grandfather, it looks like a Tachi (with Naito family crests) and I've been years in vain trying to find out if it's real... I know that this can only be determined by a specialist, but living in Spain, I don't know anyone who can help me.

I would love any comments you might have on it... Or any advise about where to go next to find out for sure if it's a true antique or not.

 

Thanks to all in advance,

 

Patrick

[John A Stuart]

Hi Patrick, It seems real enough from thos pics. Please remove the tsuka (handle) so we may see if the nakago(tang) has any inscription. Any pics showing the tip of the sword as well as the scabbard in detail will help. John

[inyopc]

Thanks so much John, it does look real like that isn't it?

I know that the only way to know for sure is by checking the inscription in the nakago... But the truth is that I've never dared to remove the tsuka... It looks fragile and even though I think the Peg is removed, I'm scared to damage it... This is why for 10 years I've been just wondering what if...?

I would like to bring it to a specialist, but as I said I don't know any in Spain (I've checked antique shops who knew nothing of Japanese swords)... But I wanted to hear some opinions of you guys in the forum, before I go on spending money.

Do you think I can just pull from the tsuka full on...?

 

Thanks

Patrick

[John A Stuart]

Your biggest worry would be the damage to the same, it looks quite dry. It is up to you of course, but me, I'd wrap the tsuka tightly with cloth and tape it securely. Then, holding the blade lightly tap the tsuka, which is cloth covered, off the blade with a very soft wood or plastic gunsmith's hammer. If really worried, don't do it, but, I don't know whom to direct you to in your area. Alternatively a lead jawed vice tightened onto a cloth wrapped spot on the blade close to the tsuka with some gentle tugging might work. Again, if you are worried, don't do it. Above all do no harm. John

[inyopc]

Thanks John for the tips... I'll give it a try, and let you guys know if I find something underneath...

Wow it's so exciting! Only to think that it could be real......

Thanks again for your help,

Patrick

[kusunokimasahige]

Well, it looks very real to me.

 

I like it a lot, especially the lacquerwork on the saya and the hilt and blade. Dont worry too much about the broken tip, if you would send it to a polisher it could be mended by the polisher. (the tip would change form just a little i think) I am very curious if it is signed.

 

Small question on photo 3 of the tsuka.. it looks like it is not connected to the sword on that image, did you already manage to take it off ?

 

Can you tell us some more of how it got into your family ? Maybe some relationship with your grandparents, or their grandparents and Japan? One of my portuguese friends owns a tachi his grandfathers grandfather received in Japan from a Shogun official, he was ambassador in Macao. Less nice than yours, but also real.

 

KM

[Grey Doffin]

Patrick,

Here is a link to a care and etiquette brochure: http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm This will tell you how to remove the handle and a bunch else you need to know. Be sure to replace the bamboo pin when you put it back together. If the pin is missing, make a new one out of a chopstick. The pin (mekugi) is absolutely necessary.

The sword is real; no doubt.

Grey

[sanjuro]

Real.... Efu no Tachi..... would originally have had a shitogi tsuba. The style of the mounts suggest an Edo period mounting but the blade has an older look. Deep sori etc suggests koto. In all it looks like a nice example. A look at that nakago will tell all.

If you follow the advice given about removal of the tsuka just take it very slowly and gently a little at a time. The tsuka should become free when about four inches of the nakago is visible. Check here for advice if you get stuck or dont feel confident in completing the job.

[Bruno]

Is it just me but on the third pic (the one of the tsuka) if you look at the left side of it it seems that the tsuka is lonely without the sword, I mean already removed.

[Lee Bray]

Possible kesho yasurimei on the last picture?

Blade looks big and no taper. Either Koto(Nambokucho ?), as Keith suggests or maybe ShinShinto copy.

It looks in reasonable condition if Nambokucho but just pure conjecture on my part based on my impression of size from the pics.

 

Can we get some measurements of the sword, please?

http://www.shibuiswords.com/terms1.htm - scroll down a little and there is a guide to measurements.

[sanjuro]

Bruno

 

if you look at the left side of it it seems that the tsuka is lonely without the sword, I mean already removed.

 

Its just you..... The space would have been occupied by the shitogi tsuba I cant find a piccie of one at the moment so I'm afraid you'll have to look it up. Google shitogi or kara tsuba. Obviously this tsuka was removed in order to remove the rice cake shaped tsuba, so it has most likely been jammed on when it was reassembed. It will come free again with a little work.

 

Edit: hang on I found a piccie or two.

[inyopc]

Thanks so much for all the info!

 

Somehow I always feared that it would be a fake... And I was expecting comments in that direction... So all your positive comments made very happy! For me it would be a dream to own a true sword!

Unfortunately, I don't know much about how my grandfather got hold of the sword. I only know that it came together with an Asian antique lot he bought in his youth... (I also have another sword of that lot, that I believe to be Indian and I'm trying to identify). My mother gave them to me when he passed away, and she said the Tachi was an "arabian" sword... Not so much like a "katana" to me, I tuck it away, until I came to know of Tachis... I also don't know how the tsuba went missing

KM, thanks for your info, I'm happy to hear that the broken tip is not a big deal... Pic 3 is just like that, a close up... sorry for the confusion.

And thanks a lot Grey for the link... I need to do some preparation before I give it a try... I'm a true ignorant of this world, I don't want to damage it... Specially when you guys think that it might be a real one... It comes to my mind now, how sometimes, as a kid I took it to the forest, and play Samurai cutting twigs... Hopefully I didn't do already some irreversible damage!

 

Thank you also Lee and Keith for all the technical information... Very interesting. I'll post the measurements ASAP

 

Wow...Amazing!

Ok I'll summon some courage, some tools and some info, and I'll send you the pics of the nakago soon.

 

I really appreciate it guys, this could be a dream come true for me.

 

Patrick

[inyopc]

Hey I've got the measurements with the help of the link:

 

IHORI-MUNE

 

NAGASA: 68cm - 26,7inch (Kissaki: 4,2cm - 1.65inch)

SORI: 3,5cm - 1.38inch

MI-HABA: Yokote 2,5cm - 0.98inch Machi 3,3cm - 1.3inch

KASANE: Yokote 0,6cm - 0.24inch Machi 0,8cm - 0.31inch

SHINOGI-JI width: Yokote 0,8cm - 0.31inch Machi 1,2cm - 0.47inch

(I think is a SHINOGI-TAKA)

 

A couple of questions:

 

As you can see in pic 3 the MEKUGI is already missing... But I can't see through the MEKUGI-ANA, is that normal? Or do you think that the Tsuka has been jammed and is not sitting in the proper position?

 

And do you think I can use one of this oil-based sprays to give some lubrication for the removal of the Tsuka or can it damage something?

 

Thanks again,

 

Patrick

[John A Stuart]

Hi Patrick, Very likely and to keep everything tight really pressed in hard. I suggest not using a lubricant if you wish to preserve the tsuka. John

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Patrick,

No oil based sprays or anything else that wasn't mentioned in the online brochure I linked you to. If you don't know what you're doing (you don't) you're taking a big risk of doing damage.

Have you tried the method in the brochure: hitting your left fist with your right? If that doesn't work, where do you live? Maybe you're close to someone more knowledgeable who can help you remove the handle.

Grey

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I think is a SHINOGI-TAKA

 

Shinogi takai 鎬高い means High shinogi, it is not related with the width of the shinogi ji but with the thickness of the shinogi in regard of the thickness of the mune.

[sanjuro]

Gee this is frustrating...... I could get this tsuka off in about three minutes just by being very careful. Its not rocket science and it doesn't need any lubricant. The damn thing has been slightly jammed on when the tsuka was replaced after the tsuba was removed. As long as you protect the fuchi with something soft but not too soft you can tap this tsuka off with a small wooden mallet. Just tap gently and evenly on first one side and then the other. All it takes is care. the sword isnt made of cotton wool and by your own admission it has already been subjected to abuse. So now isnt the time to get all timid and reticent.

 

If you use a lubricant firstly it wont work. Secondly it will ruin the tsuka and also the same' (Ray skin) that covers it. Forget chemicals and oils and technology. This is a mechanical problem involving the sensible use of the minimum force required to achieve release.

[leo]

Hi, Patrick,

if you can put your hands on a stable vice screwed safely to a workbench, you can remove the tsuka in no time!

I have used this simple method for 30 years to take off plenty of jammed handles without damaging mounts or the polish of the blade!

 

Take a stack of paper, say about 25 and fold them like an U. Insert the blade 10 inches below the habaki, cutting edge down, into this U and place paper and blade within the vice with shinogi in the middle! Do this carefully to avoid any direct contact between blade and vice!

 

Cose the vice tightly! Rather use more paper if it makes you feel better! The blade must never move in order to avoid scratches!

Now take a small hammer and a slab of wood and place this wood against the fuchi close to the tang with a thick piece of leather to cushion it. The elegantly curved shitogi fuchi might be more sensible than a regular one so take care not to dent it! Remove the tsuka with a few short dry hits on the wood with the hammer! Hit the fuchi alternately on either side if necessary!

 

Regards, Martin

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Martin,

Especially because the plate of the fuchi isn't flat, but in any case because the plate of any fuchi is soft metal, I'd make one change to your instructions. After the blade is mounted in the vise (the paper isn't necessary if you can find a wooden jaw vise) tightly coil a wash cloth and wrap it around the blade to serve as a cushion between the fuchi and the piece of wood you're using as a punch. This way the fuchi won't get scratched and is less likely to be dented.

Grey

[leo]

Thanks, Grey,

helpful add on.

Obviously misspelled vise, too!

 

Martin

[inyopc]

Sorry for the delay guys...

I haven't been trying to remove it for 2 days now... I've just been too busy to have the peace of mind and time to do this. I know it's intriguing to find out if it's signed, but I've been years waiting to do it, and I don't want to do it in a rush... Lot's of work for me this week!

I really appreciate all your tips, I'm sure I'll manage.

 

I thought to include the mention of a High Shinogi in case it's relevant.

 

I'll post the pics soon... please give me a couple of days.

Patrick

[inyopc]

I forgot to ask:

 

Is it common to find swords where the Tsuba has been removed?

I've always wondered why it was missing.

Any advice of how or where I could have it replaced...?

 

Patrick

[Lorenzo]

Who knows why it isn't there. Somewhere in time space it became lost. Could be broken, damaged, stolen or sold by itself.. you will never know.

 

I am afraid to say that if you need a replacement you will probably need to have something custom made. That will be the only way to guarantee a perfect fit.

[inyopc]

Well, I managed! No problem

 

Although I´m surprised as it´s signed in both sides, Tachi-Mei and the Mei of a Katana....???

I´m so excited... I can´t believe it. I hope somebody can tell me something about it...

 

If pics are not clear, please tell me and I´ll get some more

 

Patrick

[John A Stuart]

Nice, it seems you have a sword signed Dewa no Kuni Mizawa ju Fujiwara Hirotoshi saku. Dated, yes, Bunsei 1818-1829, can't read the added years. John

[DirkO]

Just a quick lunchbreak attempt at the date :

 

文政五年九月日 so a day of the 9th month of the 5th year of Bunsei? Could be well off though

[k morita]

Nice sword!

The mei says "Fujiwara Tsunatoshi who lived in Yonezawa in Dewa province, made this (sword) in Edo(Tokyo)."

He is Kato Chounsai Tsunatoshi.

[DirkO]

:D well I got the date, that's a start...

[Nobody]

Translations of the mei:

 

出羽國米澤住藤原綱俊作 (Dewa no kuni Yonezawa ju Fujiwara Tsunatoshi saku) – made by Fujiwara Tsunatoshi of Yonezawa in Dewa province

於武州江戸 (Oite Bushu Edo) – at Edo in Musashi province

 

文政五年九月日 (Bunsei go-nen ku-gatsu hi) – 9th month of Bunsei 5th year (=1822)

設楽金五郎所持 (Shidara Kingoro shoji) – owned by Shidara Kingoro

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Can we have a picture of the whole nakago please ?