max Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 Hello, This is my first post and I will attempt to respect all the rules of this forum. First I would like comment that I am a new member here and inexperienced with swords but anxious to learn. I have been monitoring the forum now for a couple of weeks attempting to get a good grasp of the etiquette and learn as much as possible. During this time I have really enjoyed reading many of the opinions on the various swords and topics and learned much. I have always had an interest in them but unfortunately not much extra time to devote to them up until now. As of recently I have inherited several and have been tasked with research and eventual sale of several others that belong to another family member. Several of the swords that I have to sell I would love to keep and build my own collection but unfortunately will not be able to do this with them all. At this point I have spoken with several wonderful people, some of which are members of this forum that have provided me with valuable insight and knowledge into a couple of them. However, I would love to have a chance to eventually post all of them on this forum as well and see what everyone’s thoughts/comments are. After I have managed to identify all of them, including sending a few to Shinsa, I will eventually list several for sale. Any thoughts on the swords themselves, any suggestions on avenues to proceed, recommendations on people to follow up with, and generally any info would be appreciated. I have included a link to several pictures on the first sword I will post and I uploaded a copy of the original Shinsa worksheet. Thank you, Max http://img651.imageshack.us/g/dsc04380r.jpg/ Sword_Paper_Sword_CherryBlossom.pdfFetching info... Quote
Brian Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 Max, Lack of answers in this case is, I think, mainly because people usually come here looking for an attribution, and to find out the characteristics of their blade. In this case however, you have a shinsa worksheet that gives almost everything you could ask about the blade. You have the school and all the info on the blade. Nothing we could add to that, as you have the end result of an enquiry already What more would you like to know about this one? Brian Quote
max Posted April 10, 2011 Author Report Posted April 10, 2011 Brian, I guess being as I am so new to this I am trying to ascertain if this would be considered a good sword, a good school, just general thoughts. With the help of some wonderful people I have been able to figure out the basics but I just don’t know how this sword would rank as collectable compared to others. I understand that the school itself is considered good but most of the comparisons I find are all signed. It appears to me that the sword itself would be considered nice but does the fact that it can’t be attributed to a specific smith detract from its collectability? Thank you, Max Quote
Jean Posted April 10, 2011 Report Posted April 10, 2011 Max, Osafune Tadamitsu school is one of the many late Muromachi Bizen schools. They were famed for their suguha hamon which feature a widening when entering the kissaki. Some swords were also made in the classical koshi no hiraita late Bizen style. Very ggod school. Now what is it worth. So many blades were forged at this time, that is not an issue to find one signed with an ubu Nakago, it will be diifiicult for yours to pass NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa. I have not much time to continue but, I see from the picture the blade is suriage and probably machi okuri which means that the Hi was added later on. The end of the hi were rather kaku dome Quote
max Posted April 10, 2011 Author Report Posted April 10, 2011 Jean, Brian, Thank you very much for that insight. I have been using Google to try and find out as much as I can but it’s difficult for me still to distinguish what I am looking at, at this point. I have begun reading a book and have several other books I also inherited that I intend upon reading as well but am having trouble getting the time. The learning curve it huge and my family is pressuring me to sort through their swords. I am trying to proceed as cautiously as possible as I don’t want to get ahead of myself. It took me some time to be able to even learn just the basics on care for them. I plan on attending the Chicago show coming up but am desperately trying to learn a few things before then. It’s funny that it’s even going to take me some time to translate everything you just posted to me. Thank you for take the time to do so. I have managed to upload another one of the swords and have linked it. According to the notes on the worksheet (that were not written by me) it is attributed to “Den Mino Senjuin.” I am going to try and spend some time looking this school up as well and try and find some other examples of swords from it online. I realize the pictures are not the best quality, but, I plan on taking more of all of them when I can get some time. http://img97.imageshack.us/g/dsc04402nsd.jpg/ Sword_Paper_Sword_5.pdfFetching info... Quote
max Posted April 12, 2011 Author Report Posted April 12, 2011 Jean, How can you tell that the sword was shortened, and sorry for my ignorance but is "Hi" refering to the gold writing? Thank you, Max Quote
paulb Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 Max I am sure Jean will answer in more detail but in summary, The Hi is the groove running along the blades surface. the fact this blade has two mekugi-ana, the position of each and the shape of the nakago suggest it has been shortened. The Hi ends at the machi. If this were original to the blade and it had been shortened it would run in to the nakago. As it is it looks as though the groove has been cut after the blade was reduced in length by a couple of inches. regards Paul Quote
Jacques Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 Hi, Apparently, paper does not say it's suriage. Quote
paulb Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 You are right Jacques it doesnt, but I would still bet it is. regards Paul Quote
Jacques Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 Hi, Maybe it is suriage, but nagasa is 73.6 cm, normal for this era. Quote
Curran Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 Max, You seem to be off to a fine start. Just be patient as the hobby covers centuries of variation across a good sized country. Building you basic framework of understanding and then filling in particulars can take a while. Unless you are incredibly devoted to it, give yourself at least a year to get your bearing and sort out what you have absorbed. (1) Is there no Japanese Sword club within visiting distance of you? (2) How many of the swords you are caring for now exhibit the minor rust or spider rust exhibited on the 2 blades shown? As Jean said, (den) Osafune Tadamitsu is quite collectable, though a shortened unsigned wakizashi from the later muromachi war time mass production is worth significantly less than an unaltered katana or tachi from the earlier end of the school. Still, it is something i would stop and look at. Quote
Jean Posted April 12, 2011 Report Posted April 12, 2011 Jacques, Hi, Quote Maybe it is suriage, but nagasa is 73.6 cm, normal for this era. We are talking about the Tadamitsu listed as wakizashi :D and the question for the Hi is not to know if it is suriage (it is obviously, unless sue Bizen Osafune changed suddenly its nakago jiri pattern) but if it is Machi Okuri and it is. Late Hi/groove. Paul explained it perfectly. Quote
max Posted April 13, 2011 Author Report Posted April 13, 2011 First, thank you all for your insight as I am learning a lot from you in general and about these swords. Curran, No there really is not a sword club near me I am out of south/eastern Michigan. I was going to sign up with JSSUS but just have not gotten the time yet. I have also spoken with members from the northern California club and New York one. Does anyone know anyone in my area that is knowledgeable, perhaps someone I can go to in person? As far as the swords go it appears most are all in good shape. I think some of the stuff in the photos is actual lint but I’m sure there are some blemishes. Unfortunately, I need to just get more time to go back and re-photo with more time and caution. On the Osafune Tadamitsu I know of 2 spots that have those spots even though they are small at the moment. I am the most familiar with the Osafune Tadamitsu sword as I have had the most time with it. The ones I have shown so far on this thread are the only ones out of the eventual potential sale bunch that have been through shinsa. Two of the others have made it to this forum but I really don’t have to much info on them yet other than one is probably Geime. The other one on the forum I posted for translation help and am awaiting possible more responses before I start the Google search. The remainders I have no idea about as of yet at all. Plus I am very anxious to post the ones I for sure plan on keeping, the ones my family member intended for me to keep, but, I do not want to overdo my welcome as you all have been so very helpful already. Does anyone have any thoughts on the 2nd sword I posted? I have not seem to found as much internet info on it as the Osafune. Thank you, Max Quote
Jacques Posted April 13, 2011 Report Posted April 13, 2011 Hi, Jean, Yes, i saw it a little bit too late, that's the problem when we become old and when moderators don't do their job letting two different swords in the same subject (i am perfectly of bad faith :D ) Quote
max Posted April 13, 2011 Author Report Posted April 13, 2011 Sorry about that I didn’t mean to mix the post up. Just was trying to stimulate conversation. Unfortunately, now I have asked questions on both and I am afraid the damage is done. Max Quote
Jacques Posted April 13, 2011 Report Posted April 13, 2011 Hi, No problem Max, its entirely my fault, quick reading => wrong answer. Quote
Jean Posted April 13, 2011 Report Posted April 13, 2011 Max, What do you want to know about the second one? Quote
max Posted April 15, 2011 Author Report Posted April 15, 2011 Jean, I guess just your thought/opinions/comments. What do you think of the school its from? Would you consider this sword a good representation of this school? Is it typical for this school it is attributed to. Is this considered a sought after school and how would it compare to the Osafune school of the first sword I posted. I guess really anything as I am soaking up all the info you guys are giving me and learning as I go. In fact I am even learning just the basic sword lingo from translating what you guys reply to me. Some of the basic responses you guys may take for granted significantly broaden my horizon because it gives me direction to look things up further. Thank you, Max Quote
Jean Posted April 15, 2011 Report Posted April 15, 2011 Max, That is what I was suspected. You must buy the Nagayama Kokan book and you will have almost all your answer. (Cheap book) Mino is the last of the five classical swords tradition to be established (beginning of Nambokucho). Many influences (being the last of the Gokkaden). Its origin (legend) come from two smiths who are said to have been part of the 10 most famous pupils of Masamune the greatest Sagami swordsmith : Kaneuji and Kinju (Kaneshige). So two influences: Sagami (Soshu) and Yamato. Main smiths at the origin of the different Mino schools were from Yamato: Tegai and Senjuin Yamato schools are well represented in Mino. One this Mino school is the Senjuin one: Kuninaga one of the Yamato Senjuin (Nara) school established in Mino, in Akasaka (the school is often referred as Akasaka Senjuin) cerca Jôji (1362-1368). There were several generations of smiths having this name. One thinks that some Senjuin smiths were already active in Mino before Nambokucho. These words were very uch appreciated by Warrior monksin the middle of the 15th century. Generally swords from this school have Yamato features with Masame, high shinogi, combined with Mino den features, Kitae: Itame with masame in the shinogi-ji, , shirake Utsuri, hadatachi, jinie, chikei... Hamon en nioi deki with ko nie in notare midare, hiro suguha with togariba, O notare, gunome midare (even som hitatsura) - always a lot of hataraki, kinsuji, nijuba, sunagashi ... Now, for myself, I prefer early Mino, meaning Naoe Shizu Ypur blade even if not written in the kanteisho is also suriage and machi Okuri. Original length should have been around 77/80 cm. It is almost impossible to say anything else about it due to the poor pictures. This is not a critiscism, it is an horror to picture Nihonto... Quote
max Posted April 15, 2011 Author Report Posted April 15, 2011 Jean, Thank you, those pictures were still from my original bunch I took. I would like to think I am improving but have not had a chance to retake them and prove myself with those swords. However, some of the post examples of my photographic work can be examined in another thread I just started. Titled “My Favorite” if you are interested. I think I captured the subject much better doing at least more justice to it than I did here. However, I feel I certainly still can improve. Thank you, Max Quote
Jacques Posted April 15, 2011 Report Posted April 15, 2011 Hi, Quote Original length should have been around 77/80 cm. At that time ? Quote
Jean Posted April 15, 2011 Report Posted April 15, 2011 Jacques, it is pure logic. The blade is suriage, if the lowest ana is the original one then you can add at least 4 cm to the length you gave us, for sure above 75 cm ... Nihonto is full of exceptions. Quote
Jacques Posted April 15, 2011 Report Posted April 15, 2011 Hi, Jean, a second mekugi ana is not a proof a blade is suriage. From the Mino to taikan : Kaneyoshi, Oei era, nagasa 70.09cm ubu nakago. Quote
Jean Posted April 15, 2011 Report Posted April 15, 2011 You are entirely right Jacques, but in this case you are wrong, I let you find why Quote
Jacques Posted April 15, 2011 Report Posted April 15, 2011 Hi, Jean, I give my tongue to the cat. Quote
Jean Posted April 15, 2011 Report Posted April 15, 2011 Because of the nakago Jiri which is Kiri, generally found either on Ichimonji blades or on suriage blades (Which does not mean you are wrong concerning the blade not being machi okuri) Quote
Jacques Posted April 15, 2011 Report Posted April 15, 2011 Hi, Jean look attentively at the nakago jiri , it is a flat kurijiri but not kiri. Quote
Jean Posted April 15, 2011 Report Posted April 15, 2011 Very difficult to see, considering this one and surprisingly when you look at the kanteisho, something happened at the Nakago jiri In fact a picture of the section of the nakago jiri (Butt) could give us the solution. Quote
Jacques Posted April 15, 2011 Report Posted April 15, 2011 Hi, Quote considering this one and surprisingly when you look at the kanteisho, something happened at the Nakago jiri I see nothing about that. Quote
Jean Posted April 16, 2011 Report Posted April 16, 2011 I was taking about the nakago oshigata on the kanteisho there is a big pen brown mark just at the level of the nakago jiri Quote
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