unusual practice of yasukuni kabutogane...?

[kaigunair]

I've seen this twice now on yasukuni blades, and was wondering if others had seen this done for other gendaito/guntos.

 

Basically, the sarute and the round, 2 piece metal tube that held the sarute is removed from the kabuto-gane, and a piece of bamboo is placed inside.

 

I figured this meant that perhaps the owner replaced the entire kabuto-gane, since the original one may have had a kamon/crest on it, but now I've seen an example where the kabuto-gane has a kamon, but the sarute & 2 piece metal tube/loop hole are removed and a bamboo peg installed. In both cases, the bamboo peg is aged.

 

If someone was trying to remove a tassel, I can understand the sarute missing, but not the sarute and the screw in metal tube holder. Unless most yasukuni-to's had a kabuto-gane & sarute but no tube holder.

 

The only other reason I can think of doing this is that perhaps there was a post-ww2 use for sarute/tube holder, maybe a nice key chain? Or the combination is needed to display a tassel on the wall/family shrine? Is there something especially symbolic of a sarute that it needed to be removed (like the grounding of the imperial chrysanthemum on rifles)?

[chrisf]

In some schools of swordsmanship the kashira/kabutogane is held mostly towards the palm of the left hand,perhaps the tube and sarute were removed to make this more comfortable and quieter?

[Mark]

Chris

 

i thought about removing the sarute' to keep it quiet but removing the screwed insert makes no sense, it is tight it will not rattle and helps keep the kabutogane tight

[chrisf]

The only other thing I thought of was to enable a bandage to be threaded through.In stills and film footage most gunto carried into combat seem to have a white bandage wrapped around the tsuka.

[kusunokimasahige]

It is highly likely the removal of sarute and filling the hole with bamboo is to keep the sword silent.

 

KM

[kaigunair]

I never really thought about keeping the sword silent. Could this mean that mount with this modification were carried into a battle area, while those with may have been taken from "desk jockey" officers?

 

If this were the case, the modification would been seen across many gusto/Gendaito. Is this a common occurrence? I guess I'll be paying more attention to this detail....

 

Is this also the reason why I sometimes see cords instead Of a metal Sarute at the end of naval mounts?

[chrisf]

Logically if you were in a combat area especially in a jungle/brush/scrub environment you would try to eliminate anything that would represent a snag hazard and it is recorded that night attacks were popular as a psychological battle tactic so silence was also important.Basic night patrol routine is to jump up and down to ensure no kit rattles and many officers in the IJA were experienced campaigners having fought through China and Manchuria.

Unless a sword has a genuine provenance any comments on its possible use and history can only be conjecture on our part.

[Stu W]

Hi,

 

Given the fine condition of the sword I think you are referring to (Steve's?) I doubt it ever saw use in a combat area. To me that eliminates the possibility of the modification being done for noise level purposes. Similarly I see no need for a Navy officer to silence his sword.

 

I've examined a few Yasukuni and quite a number of other gunto mounted swords, with and without kamon, and none have had this modification you refer to. Steve's was the first one I've seen.

 

I think we still have an unsolved mystery.

 

I'll add a photo of it here.

 

Regards,

Stu

[kaigunair]

That post seems to imply that there is a lot of experience and expertise behind it. I don't agree with how it equates condition of the blade or possibly the mounts to determine field use. You would do well to research known surrendered blades, ESP those from officers in places like Burma and the Philippines. One may argue the blades from the high ranking officers weren't "field" used, but I would disagree since in other battlefields, they would lead the final banzai charge.

 

Also, as I've stated, I've now seen two examples, but wasn't paying attention in the past to this detail. I find it almost a statistical improbability that I alone would be privy to this experience, so I think it is a more common, though unnoticed, occurrence. Hopefully the post will raise awareness of collectors and then we'll see more examples pop up (or not).

 

I appreciate and enjoy all the comments with great insight. And I think I'll be spending more time in this forum!

 

 

 

Given the fine condition of the sword I think you are referring to (Steve's?) I doubt it ever saw use in a combat area. To me that eliminates the possibility of the modification being done for noise level purposes. Similarly I see no need for a Navy officer to silence his sword.

I've examined a few Yasukuni and quite a number of other gunto mounted swords, with and without kamon, and none have had this modification you refer to. Steve's was the first one I've seen.

 

[Stu W]

I didn't mean to imply anything. I just stated what I've observed.

 

I feel that had the practise been started to silence a blade then there should be many examples and as you have said you've only seen a couple and that was the first I'd seen.

 

As to what I should study...I am a newbie, as you well know from the other forum, and am trying my best to learn from numerous sources while at the same time offering what I feel are appropriate comments where I can. The subsequent responses from those folks more experienced help me learn.

 

I meant no offence.

 

Regards,

Stu

[gab72]

I have a Emura blade in full shingunto koshirae where the Sarute and two tube are missed.

Maybe the solution is more simple and sarute and tassel are removed after the war from the

owners to sell it separately and the little two tube never re-puted on the sword for a estetic

question. I don't know it just a speculation, but I tried it on a my different gunto koshirae

and the tsuka look better without the two tubes instead with it mounted.

[kaigunair]

Nice! Now there is an example if an emura blade with this mod. Estetic reasons also a possibility. While we may or may not ultimately know the true answer, aren't these the type of questions that make collecting nihonto so interesting? Maybe it's just me....

 

 

I have a Emura blade in full shingunto koshirae where the Sarute and two tube are missed.

Maybe the solution is more simple and sarute and tassel are removed after the war from the

owners to sell it separately and the little two tube never re-puted on the sword for a estetic

question. I don't know it just a speculation, but I tried it on a my different gunto koshirae

and the tsuka look better without the two tubes instead with it mounted.

[Ruben]

Hi Everyone,

 

I think when a soldier(officer) was wearing a sword, he had to pratice also with it.

The sarute would maybe be realy annoying. Also the Gunto- tsuka´s weren´t that long, so it´s easy to come down with the hand when training hard. I can imagine this can cause realy pain when the hand is whipping arrond on that 3 hours in a row.

(I got hard skin on my right hand upper side hand, near the first thump joint, it came from the tsuba)

 

When fighting from horseback one handed the sarute with tassel is usefull to catch the own sword before loosing it in a tricky situation.

It can be very easily removed with bare hands and also applied again,... so no problem to leave it at home when swinging the sword outside .

It´s just my humble opinion, so don´t take it to serious

 

Regards!

 

Ruben

[chrisf]

Not so sure about gunto tsuka not being very long,for practical use they are very efficient as they afford more than adequate leverage and a great deal of flexibility in either single or two handed use and also a lot easier to carry or wear than a very long tsuka.

[David Flynn]

Gunto Tsuka, came in various lengths. Some short, some long and some just right! :lol:

[Ruben]

Whats the right lenth is hard to say, sure it depends on the wight of the sword and the lenth and the user.

It was just a idea, cause a short tsuka would be very unusefull (the tsuka of my sword would be to short, also the sword would be....hmmm). For me a ideal tsuka would be 27-28 cm, not more not less.

Maybe its just a aesthetic things, I stongly belive this also

 

Greetings

[kaigunair]

some update on the kabutogane pegs:

 

The peg holding in the second kabutogane is actually a broken pencil (yes, with a graphite core). The kabutogane was also very loose. A pencil was also used for the mekugi ana on this yasukuni.

 

Upon closer look at my original yasukuni, a bamboo peg was used but it slightly oversized (i.e. sort of sticks out of the side of the kabutogane).

 

Based upon these two examples, they seem less like a field job and more a post-war mod. Perhaps they were done by the owner to keep the tassle, or perhaps done by the US occupational authorities when they were collecting and cateloging the surrendered blades? The pencil really shocked me (the one in the mekugi disintergrated and I replaced it with a temporary one made from a take out chopstick).

 

Guess I'll now post for gunto sarute's and rings in the wanted section...

[chrisf]

So much for my theory of silent kenjutsu!

Was the pencil mightier than the sword?

[kaigunair]

So much for my theory of silent kenjutsu!

Was the pencil mightier than the sword?

 

:lol: well, in this case, no, since it disintegrated in the mekugi!

 

But you've gotta hand it to the saya makers....I mean, how often do you hear of a sword coming out of the handle in the middle of a battle. The only thing holding it in there is the compression of the wood/cord wrappings, and a little bamboo peg!

 

More correct to say the post office was mighter than the pencil...

[chrisf]

Sadly I have to agree,over the years I've had four swords that have suffered broken mekugi while in transit,fortunately three were in gunto mounts which caused the blades to become jammed into the wooden liners,the last a civilian saya which now has a large split.

I ask shippers to send swords with the hilt removed and a load of tape around the nakago to prevent it slipping down but they all seem to know better........

I also ask for large print on parcel for the benefit of PF/PO employees;'FRAGILE - PLEASE THROW UNDERARM'.