Another unusual bokken.

[estcrh]

Hopefully this one will be a little less controversial. I have never seen one like this but I was told that certain ryu use a straight bokken, maybe some of the forum members with martial arts experience will have some info. This bokken looks to be old and made from oak. It is also quite long, 48 inches or 1.2 meters. Any ideas?

 

 

 

[takeda81]

Hello ,

 

The shape is close to the regular Kurama Ryu Bokken.

 

The dimensions can suggest the legendary Musashi bokken but accordingly to its weight it can be just a customized suburi bokken as well.

 

just my humble opinion

 

Cris

[estcrh]

Chris thats a nice chart, thanks,

[sanjuro]

Chris

 

Can I ask where that chart came from please? Its not one I have ever seen before and I thought I had a fairly reasonable collection of ryu books.

[Lorenzo]

It's Italian, because of the Italian writtinen words on the top (normale means normal; perhaps in French and Spanish too?)

[Jean]

"normal" in French, same in Spanish

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Chris

 

Can I ask where that chart came from please? Its not one I have ever seen before and I thought I had a fairly reasonable collection of ryu books.

 

Methink it's custom-made, not taken from the net. Possibly for a dojo.

It reminds me a couple that valdek Laur made for me years ago about Yari tipologies and the changes of Nihonto shapes during the centuries.

[takeda81]

Hello ,

 

I am glad that the chart was interesting.

It is comming from my data collection on the hard drive, probably saved from the net, or from some sketches scanned from brochures got from various budo stores in Tokyo...

 

I kept it specially because it gaves also weights of the bokuto's which was interesting for me.

This board is a great help for me, and this is an opportunity to thank everybody for your contributions here - Domo Arigatto Gozaimasu !

 

gambatte !

 

Cris

[estcrh]

Can anyone say if this statement is true?

 

Kashima Shin Ryu (found circa 1450), the second oldest surviving koryu, have used only straight bokken in their training. Their reasoning has something to do with wood grain in relation to strength of the bokken. They believe that curve bokken are more likely to break during heavy sparing. There are several other koryu who train with straight bokken as well.

[sanjuro]

Eric.

 

Its my understanding that the statement is essentially true. However, having said that I believe it to be historically true rather than currently and exclusively the case. There are excellent reasons to use a curved bokken, and without going into them in detail, basically a straight bokken would render some defensive techniques and a couple of offensive ones, impossible to execute. The curved bokken most closely resembles the sword itself but the curve has a purpose beyond mere resemblance.

Heavy sparring does take its toll on bokken however, and I can see the reasoning behind that statement although the reverse is true of a steel blade.

Its also my understanding that more modern bokken are kiln dried to increase their strength. In the early days kiln drying would not have been practiced. A modern bokken is also coated with a varnish to reduce its absorbtion of moisture. Old bokken were not coated.

 

Materials also have some variance in them. Red oak which is traditionally used for bokken, has grain variations that can lead to breakage. Japanese White Oak is reputedly stronger and more close grained, but the selection of a bokken regardless of the material used is also important. One tries to select a grain that closely follows the curve of the bokken. Branch wood is therefore sometimes better than trunk wood, and is generally more closely grained. Its quite a science in itself. A good maker of bokken (bokutoshi????????) was highly thought of in the old days. Most bokken now are mass produced rather than by hand as they once were.

 

 

Sorry... didnt mean to ramble on so much.

[estcrh]

Keith, thanks, the bokken I showed looks quite old but I have no way of knowing for sure except if someone would be able to tell from the size and shape. I thought the size was a little unusual but the chart that Chris posted shows a couple of types around the same length.

[sanjuro]

Eric.

My feeling about the bokken you posted is that it is a saburito more than a bokken. And yes, it certainly appears to be quite old. Even red oak takes a while to get that colouring. (Tung oil used to be used to preserve the wood. It sends the wood a blackish brown colour over time). What sort of cross section does it have? It appears to be oval or round in cross section. The tsuba interests me also. Is it iron? (hard to tell from the photograph) if so, it is rather a heavy piece and would add somewhat to the weight of the piece in hand - and would be another reason to think it may be a saburito.

 

It strikes me that it would be an interesting excercise to compare the bokken of the variou Ryu to the style and proportion of the sword they recommend. There is a large variation in the styles/ weight/ curvature/ length of swords recommended by the various ryu. One would think that the bokken they use would reflect those preferences to some degree, yet it seems sometimes this is not the case.........

 

Sorry, rambling again.....

[b.hennick]

Kim Taylor - a 5th Dan in iaido makes wooden weapons. Here is a link to his web-site

http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_bokuto.htm

[estcrh]

Eric.

My feeling about the bokken you posted is that it is a saburito more than a bokken. What sort of cross section does it have? It appears to be oval or round in cross section. The tsuba interests me also. Is it iron?

The tsuba is thick leather or rawhide and it has a round cross section. While it is a hard wood it is not really heavy, I have a couple of staff weapons with very tight grain that are extremely heavy.

 

[sanjuro]

Eric.

Contrary to my earlier feeling that this is a saburito, I now have reason to believe, having dug around in the books charts and most productively the odd notes I have accumulated over the years, that this bokken actually conforms very closely to a weapon that predates kendo and the shinai.Swordsmanship in the Muromachi period and before was practiced using a solid round or more often slightly oval wooden bokken called a whitestick. The type of practice and precurser to kendo was also called whitesticks. The bokken despite the name was not actually a whitestick but one of red oak or other similar hardwood covered with a white canvas sort of material. the whitestick had a thick leather tsuba and a longer than average tsuka similar in length to that of the bamboo shinai that ultimately replaced it. I had previously considered the possibility of this bokken being a whitestick, but dismissed it thinking the piece not old enough. However, the sport of whitesticks did persist for some time into the Momoyama period.

The exponents of this form of sword practice wore padded armour rather than the more familiar kendo armour of today, also a padded men (helmet). This form of practice was abandoned due largely to the number of injuries suffered, and when the forerunner of the bamboo shinai was introduced to minimise those injuries. I'm looking for but have not yet found an illustration of the type of practice and armour used in whitesticks.

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Keith,

 

I think it may refer to Maniwa Nen Ryu.......

 

Check out the video from 14.52 minutes in.

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7g2z1 ... art1_sport

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[sanjuro]

Hi Malcolm

 

Thanks... Thats whitesticks alright, although it was not confined only to the Maniwa Nen Ryu. It was not always practiced with such restraint either. I'm surprised that it is still practiced at all. There are a couple of decent shots of the bokken being used also, if you pause the replay at the right spots. :D

 

Thanks again...

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi again Keith,

 

The film comes from the 1970's.

 

This is the Dojo recently:

 

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[sanjuro]

Interesting to note they use the same bokken as the Jikishinkage Ryu but with the addition of a thick wooden tsuba.

[Icepic]

Hello All, I have heard that if everybody in a dojo use the same type of wood in there is less breakage. Has anybody tried bokkens made from Appalachain Hickory ? There is a custom shop in Vermont that makes upscale martial arts bokkens out of hickory, the higher grade ones can be quite exspensive. There web site is pretty good also. http://www.kingfisherwoodworks.com

[estcrh]

Some great info on the subject guys, thanks. Here is a photo of both ends of the bokken to compare.

 

 

[sanjuro]

Its certainly not your regular bokken is it? It also doesnt fit any of the variant bokken of the various major ryu. The measurements and general conformation only really fit the whitesticks type. You have an unusual piece of training equipment there Eric, I have only ever seen a similar pair of bokken once before (without tsuba), and they were kept as relics of a bygone age. They were also not in such good condition as this one. Its worth hanging onto and preserving it. (Give it a little wipe with either tung oil if you can get it, or linseed oil.)

[estcrh]

Its certainly not your regular bokken is it? It also doesnt fit any of the variant bokken of the various major ryu. The measurements and general conformation only really fit the whitesticks type. You have an unusual piece of training equipment there Eric, I have only ever seen a similar pair of bokken once before (without tsuba), and they were kept as relics of a bygone age. They were also not in such good condition as this one. Its worth hanging onto and preserving it. (Give it a little wipe with either tung oil if you can get it, or linseed oil.)

I have never seen another one like it either, I got it along with some old hard wood staffs from someone who had a lot of old unusual martial arts weapons and books. It actually has some beetle bore holes, they have some really tough bugs in Japan.

[estcrh]

Oil made a huge difference! I will post some pictures of the wood staff weapons.

[sanjuro]

It actually has some beetle bore holes, they have some really tough bugs in Japan.

 

Samurai termites........ sometimes called dojo bugs. Found only in old bokken, yari and naginata ebu. Curse of the budoka. Treat by wiping affected area with copious amounts of sake' -Wait for the bug to stagger out in a drunken stupor and exterminate him! Alternatively, you can drink the sake' yourself, forget about the holes (the bug has most likely already died from old age) and view the whole situation philosophically. (The latter works best for me).

 

The oil will make a huge difference to the preservation of the wood as well as the appearance of it. You mentioned this bokken was fairly light for a hard wood and that made me think it may be totally dry. If you lightly oil these wooden weapons about twice a year they should last for ever.

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all,

 

Another method of preserving unlacquered wooden weapons is simple Rice Bran in a cotton bag.

 

The rice bran releases its oil slowly and you get a slow build patina.

 

Used like ibota on Shirasaya.

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[sanjuro]

Malcolm.

 

I hadnt heard that before....... handy for newer bokken. Thanks. The tung oil remedy I suggested does require the oil be left on to soak in for a couple of hours and then wipe off any excess. I think Erics bokken needed a quick 'drink' if the oil just soaked straight in.

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning Keith,

 

The Rice Bran method requires a cotton or muslin bag about 9 x 9 inches, fill with enough rice bran to allow it to be folded in two in the palm of your hand. Stitch it closed and apply to wooden weapons after training.

 

In time the Rice Bran packs down and releases its oils, when the bag seems depleted, add more Rice Bran and continue.

 

The bag in contact with the wood become oil impregnated but not so much that it renders the weapon sticky.

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[FBJ]

Kim Taylor - a 5th Dan in iaido makes wooden weapons. Here is a link to his web-site

http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_bokuto.htm

 

Seventh dan. There's about fifteen years difference there.

 

Mike H.

[takeda81]

Hello again ,

 

I just came back from Japan and I had the honour of visiting Shihan Jun Osano, which is also a great collector, besides being a very good sensei and a known researcher ( many published books on koryu bujutsu)

I saw some pieces of his great collection, including many old bokuto. The one which started this thread seems now close to one that I saw there, and came from Kogen Itto Ryu . Apparently they use to train with large and heavy bokuto's. If they are suburito or regular training bokuto, it depends on the skills of the owner.

 

Also something else which might be interesting , sometimes there are old pieces used just for display on temple boards - Honogaku, and they are not always exact replica of the original pieces.. Maybe same like shrine dedicated nihonto's... A good example is the bokuto of Tennen Rishin Ryu which was not that huge as they tend to beleive (according to some temple display)

Also, I saw at Fuji Sengen Jinja in Fujiyoshida city , a pair of bokuto's - long and wakizashi size, used on a memorial Honogaku written for an Itto Ryu embu there , more then 120 years ago... The original weapons seemd small, because they were original (normal size), and very high placed on the temple wall...

 

hope this helps

 

Cristian L.S.