Chounsai Emura Saku - Help Please

[FrancisP]

Hi,

 

I'm a total beginner to sword collection. A number of years ago, I was given a sword as a gift after a friend found it on a building site in Ayrshire, Scotland. It was in pretty poor shape, chips out of the blade, no handle, etc, so I sent it away for restoration and to have a shirasaya made for it.

 

It's back with me now, looking pretty nice. The chap who restore it mentioned that he had the signature translated and it was be a 'Chounsai Emura Saku'.

 

I've looked online and have found a wee bit of information about him, but are there any books, specialist websites or organisations that would be able to look at it and tell me if it's a real one or a knock off? I'd be lying if I didn't say I was interested in how much it'd fetch too.

 

I can post pictures if it'd help.

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Francis Polding.

[John A Stuart]

It would be nice to have first dibs on seeing some pics here. If you need to have it seen by someone near you, there are many Uk members that can direct you to an authority. John

[gab72]

Hi Francis,

 

Here you can find some info on Emura and some mei to compare with your one:

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/emura.htm

But please post some pics.

 

Gabriele

[FrancisP]

Hi,

 

Much appreciated for the link, I think I may have seen that one before.

 

In relation to the pictures, I'm away on holiday tonight, so I won't be able to post them until about the same time next week.

 

Kind regards,

 

Francis

[cisco-san]

Sorry but I will use this threat for another Emura question.

 

I have seen this Mei (Emura saku), but the signature seems very sloppy

Your comments would be highly appreciated.

 

Many thanks

[Mark]

does not look like any Emura i have seen before, there are a lot of examples available to be checked so i would be worried

[Tom Clancy]

Klaus

Use this as a comparison.

 

Tom

[Bruno]

Maybe signed by one of his convicts sword makers? That is why the mei is different.

[george trotter]

Looking especially at the kanji for saku, the "known" Chounsai Emura mei always have the long down stroke...as in the bottom pic (see links above - Japanese sword index - Chounsai Emura). The only variation I have seen is when Saku is in sosho script. I have not seen this mei before.

George.

[cisco-san]

Dear all,

 

many thanks for your comments.

I compared this Mei of course with severals others from Emura in advance (e.g. you can find a lot of signatures form Emura on R. Stein´s HP ) and Your comments confirms my doubts.

 

Again many thanks

[FrancisP]

Hi,

 

Thanks for all the informtion, especially the pictures. I've posted a few pictures of the sword below. As it's in the shirasaya, I haven't taken it apart, mostly because I don't honestly know if I could put it back to gether again!

 

When I sent it away for restoration, I took a rubbing of the tang. The signature is similar to the second picture above, but it's got more characters on it.

 

Please forgive the quality of the pictures. My camera is pretty basic. I tried to use the highest settings, so you could probably save them and zoom in. I tried to get a picture of the hamon, but I'm not sure how it'll turn out.

 

Meant to mention in the first post. The restorer said that there's a couple of holes in the tang. This is supposed to mean that it's been remounted more than once.

 

Many thanks again. Hopefully these pictures will help get more information.

 

Francis.

[FrancisP]

Hi,

 

Think I posted the last picture three times, sorry.

 

Here's a couple more.

 

Kind regards,

 

Francis.

[george trotter]

The mei is a bit of a mystery...as the sword was "lying on a building site" and was abused and deteriorated, it seems that it has been around since the war. It is not likely to be a gimei (deliberately false signature) as it would have had to be done either at the time when Emura was working or sometime in the last 15-20 years when he has become "known" again...and the condition seems to rule against this. As he was just one of many competent gendai tosho it does not seem that there would be any money to be made from "forging" his signature, either then or now...so it is probably, as has been said above, one of his sakite who signed it. He is known to have had his mei done by his apprentices/students (all convicts at Okayama? prison forge I think). I would consider this a workshop variation, unless it is proven to be a later forgery.

Regards,

George.

[Tom Clancy]

Francis

Could you take some close up shots of the kissaki and blade. This might give a better indication to it being a workshop blade signed and perhaps forged by an inmate.Regarding the removal of the wooden handle it is a simple process,read sword care and handling top of page.

 

Tom.

[george trotter]

Dang...I think I've confused the mei on the original "Chounsai Emura" sword query by FrancisP (mei not shown yet...found on building site) with the "Emura Saku" mei posted by Cisco-san (brown "awkward" mei). Sooo...please disregard my answer as it relates to neither sword/circumstance.

 

Geo.

[FrancisP]

Hi,

 

Many thanks for the information. It's pretty amazing what can be told from just you guys looking at a couple of pictures.

 

Just to clarify, though, the sword wasn't found 'lying about on a building site', I had said that my friend found it on a building site. Perhaps I should have been more specific; he found it in a loft of a building which was being torn down, minus its tsuka and tsuba, but with the saya present. The saya seems to be of the military type, metal with a wooden liner, the laqueur is a mid greeny-brown colour. There's a motif on the metal hanger at the top of the saya of a ten-petal flower on top of another larger ten-petal flower.

 

I'm at work at the moment, so I won't be able to get the pictures uploaded until tomorrow. I'll try to get them on in the morning.

 

Kind regards,

 

Francis.

[george trotter]

Yes...sounds like standard gunto saya. Yours should be a mei similar to the "shiny" one posted above. We do need to see the tang pics though. The other one posted by Cisco-san...well we need details of its fittings etc to help with an opinion.

Regards,

George.

[FrancisP]

Hi,

 

Please find below pictures of the kissaki and nakago. Many thanks for the tip on how to remove the tsuka and menuki.

 

Kind regards,

 

Francis.

[FrancisP]

And here's another two.

 

Kind regards,

 

Francis.

[george trotter]

Well, Francis, I don't think there is any mystery here, your mei looks like a close match with Mei A and D on Rich Stein's "Chounsai Emura" discussion paper...see it through the link to Japanese sword index above.

Probably a good place for Cisco-san to check his mei also.

Regards,

George.

[kaigunair]

I'm really surprised you had what must have been a very expensive polish if it was done traditionally and resting saya made for an emura blade! Since it is an emura and doesn't look particularly unique, would I be correct in guessing this wasn't done by a formally trained polisher? (I would also be very surprise if one accepted it) Also, the pics are pretty blurry, so while the saya looks very decent, I honestly think the pics make it look like the polish is very rough with lots of scratches....

[FrancisP]

Hi,

 

It wasn't all that expensive to have the polishing and saya done, the pain in the bum was having to wait nearly five years to get it back.

 

Not being an expert in swords, I wanted to see what the blade was supposed to look like and I reckoned that it was a fair gamble to fork out what was required to get it looking something like normal.

 

The pictures don't really do it any justice. I've only got a 2Mp camera on my 'phone and they don't give a lot of detail of the hamon and the hada seems alnmost non-existant.

 

I only really wanted to own a real Japanese sword in reasonable condition, so making money wasn't part of the plan, that's why I wasn't bothered about the outlay.

[FrancisP]

Hi,

 

Sorry, forgot to mention the chap who restored the sword. His name is Cliff Schooling, a pretty decent guy.

 

He's got a website, http://www.crandart.co.uk . Maybe you could have a look at it and tell me what you think.

 

Kind regards,

 

Francis.

[kaigunair]

I only really wanted to own a real Japanese sword in reasonable condition, so making money wasn't part of the plan, that's why I wasn't bothered about the outlay.

 

First off, I enjoy collecting gendaito blades and I give you credit for taking on the cost and the 5 year wait time (which I believe is extreme for this type of blade, or most any normal blade TBH). That being said, I think it only honest to say that your time and funds might have been better spent elsewhere? Emura blades aren't exactly "real Japanese swords", unless possibly forged by Mr. Emura himself. They're more gunto than gendaito. I'm was really surprised when I heard you went through the whole polishing/saya making process because of the cost and this fact. You possilbly would have been able to pick up a decent "real Japanese sword" for the price. Did some one advise you to do this with the emura blade?

 

I've been told one reason to stay away from ww2 blades is because one needs to view quality blades to get an eye for quality work, and ww2 blades normally don't fall into that category. To this end I do stick with collecting yasukunito/mina-to, but have been tempted to collect other forms of "gunto" for the history aspect. The history/era/use of ww2 swords is important to myself, since I am not yet an art conissour of nihonto. Through study, I hope to be able to develop my eye for nihoto and begin collecting "nicer" and older blades.

 

The emura blade appears to have been a great learning experience for you. B/c it doesn't quite fall into true "nihonto", you may want to see if you can exchange it for something more worthy of study if possible. Again, I would be really shocked to hear if anyone here advised you to go this route. But since you appear to really appreciate nihonto, the best thing would be to get something better to study.

 

my humble opinion, from a fellow novice collector....

[cabowen]

I think it is safe to say that most of the Emura blades were in fact traditionally made and can be considered honest nihon-to. However, they were often made by students who were not professionals. Even those made by Emura himself are quite a few steps below the work of the better professional smiths of the period. I have often wondered at the interest and high prices paid on line for Emura blades when so much better work is available at the same or similar prices....

 

That being said, while it may not be the best move from a financial perspective to spend the time and money to restore an Emura blade, I think it is admirable that the op has done so....

[kaigunair]

That being said, while it may not be the best move from a financial perspective to spend the time and money to restore an Emura blade, I think it is admirable that the op has done so....

 

I feel the same way and hope he doesn't stop with this blade.

 

Re: emura blades, I was under the impression that most of these were not made with tamahagene? Also, has the prison labor/smiths story been verified or debunked?

[max]

Any money spent on something you truly enjoy or personally like is worth it no matter what anyone else’s opinion is. After all you are the one who appreciates it. God knows I have spent a lot of money on things my wife would say I should not have, but they were all things I appreciated.

 

Max (Novice)

[David Flynn]

I have seen some rather wonderful Emura blades. Lovely hada, nice hamon with hataraki. I have also seen some very mediocre Emura swords. So, it still comes down to the individual blade.

[cabowen]

Re: emura blades, I was under the impression that most of these were not made with tamahagene? Also, has the prison labor/smiths story been verified or debunked?

 

It may never be known if they were all in fact made with tamahagane but given the huge number of them I have seen, all appeared water quenched. Water quenching is usually a sign that western steel was not used....

 

I have read a personal account written by the father of the deceased polisher Yoshikawa Kentaro, who was also a polisher, of his visit to a prison in Okayama during the war where he observed first hand this prison school of sword smiths. He was quite moved by the experience as I recall....I consider this verification.

 

I have seen some rather wonderful Emura blades. Lovely hada, nice hamon with hataraki. I have also seen some very mediocre Emura swords. So, it still comes down to the individual blade.

 

You are fortunate as "rather wonderful" are not words that the 75-100 or so that I have seen bring to mind...They say every dog has his day though....

[kaigunair]

It may never be known if they were all in fact made with tamahagane but given the huge number of them I have seen, all appeared water quenched. Water quenching is usually a sign that western steel was not used....

 

I'm really interested in this aspect of "what makes a real nihonto", and this could potentially open up a "can of worms" regarding my many questions about gendaito/guntos, mantetsu/seki smiths, and what shinsha teams will and will not look at. Also of "namban steel" made shinto and shin-shinto blades. Probably best to open up a new thread.

 

I've enjoyed the thread and hopefully has the original poster... :D