First Nihonto pick

[Matus]

Hi,

 

finally I decided to get my first Nihonto. After a year of considerations, after weeks of intensive browsing and reading (I don't want to say studying), I figured out, what I'm actually looking for:

 

old blade (late Muromachi or earlier), no Kizu, with Koshirae. So far, I'm not able to appreciate style or school or smith - for such I would need much more to learn, so this will maybe come in the future. Currently I'm really fascinated by the age of such blades and the blade itself (Hamon, Hada).

 

I found 3 candidates from AOI ART, which I'm considering:

 

1) Katana, early Muromachi period

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/katana/10326.html

 

2) Wakizashi, late Muromachi period

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/10447.html

 

3) Wakizashi, late Muromachi period

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/10453.html

 

I would be very much interested to hear your expert comments on those.

 

Thank you,

Matus

[nagamaki - Franco]

I don't want to say studying

 

go study .....

[sanjuro]

So far, I'm not able to appreciate style or school or smith

 

In other words you wont have a clue what to look for or what you are looking at, regardless of what sword you buy. Style and possibly school would be a basic. More reading and contact with good swords is indicated prior to buying anything but books.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Matus, can you explain to us briefly just WHY these blades appeal to you? Is it just because they're old, or is there some other reason why the Muromachi Period is your initial goal?

 

How many reference books have you purchased so far? Are these Nihonto referenced in them? What do you know about the sword smiths & schools? Have you analyzed the appearance of each blade to see whether they seem to be appropriately identified (Aoi Art, NBTHK, & Honami [especially] have all been known to make an error or two)?

 

Buying a Nihonto without having any real understanding of these factors almost always comes back to haunt you. Why not attend a local meeting of the Japanese Sword Society & ask its members what they think of these blades, Matus? Whether pro or con, I think you'll find there's a lot more depth to their answers that you - with your claimed lack of studying - simply have not considered. And you may also find that buying a blade from a member is the best way to get started.

 

But, as has been pointed out many times in this forum, in the end it's your money....

[paulb]

Dear Matus,

To try and offer a slightly more positve response to you inquiry than you have yet received:

Firstly I commend you for doing the right thing and looking at established dealers offerings rather than the approach normally taken by beginners which is to rush to ebay in search of a bargain.

My personal experience of Aoi-Art has always been very positive and I have never been dissappointed in what he has sold me. having said that if you look at the range of his offerings and the prices you will see that you will for sure pay the market rate for what you buy.

Therefore the swords you are looking at are at the lower end of the market (still much better than many first time swords we see here)

If you accept that you are at the beginning and not buying a top piece or art sword then you must decide what you are looking for in the blade you buy. Key features are always shape, hamon, hada, nakago.

It is impossible to advise you on what you should like. What you are looking at are, I think, fairly priced for what they are. If they appeal to you and are within your price range then it is your choice as to which you go for.

Many of us will recommend that you continue to study and buy books and this is very sound advice. However it can also be a very "dry" experience at some point one needs the thrill of a first purchase to keep the interest going and as said before these are no worse and a lot better than many first buys we have witnessed in the past

Good Luck

Paul

[Matus]

Hi,

 

to explain my motivation & background - I collect mainly french napoleonic blades and early flintlock firearms, although having a few pieces that don't fit any of these groups. I also very much appreciate antique furniture, paintings and books.

My motivation is first of all history. Knowing history from books is one thing, but to actually see and feel the history (by touching and using the real objects) is very fascinating to me. It also enables me to have a deeper understanding of what was the life back in those days. Moreover, in today's mass-market product world, seeing the antique objects, being actually all originals, crafted with special skills and love and this is also very important to me.

 

Now, why a Nihonto? I was always fascinated by the consistency of the Nihonto throughout the history - the basic shape didn't fundamentally change in almost 800 years (whereas in Europe the changes were rather dramatic). And the second aspect is the age of the blade itself. That's the reason why I'm looking at the Muromachi period. I just would like to add a 400+ year old quality blade to my collection. Call me naive, but I feel a piece of Japan's history should be present in every arms and armour collection.

 

I fully agree that the school/smith is of greatest importance, but let me give you an example: Someone would like to have a cased set of duelling perkussion pistols. It's well known, that the the best are from Francotte, Lepage or Lebeda which are priced 10000 EUR and above. But who can say you will not appreciate a set for half the price (or even less), if it's complete, well made a signed by a less known gunmaker? So this is how I view Nihonto as well. As long it's not a fake, there's no Kizu, for myslef there is value. Now the question comes, what's the value of course... and since I'm not a Nihonto expert, I need an advice here. I know these 3 blades are not the "Lebeda's" or any kind of undiscovered gems, I just would like to hear your opinion about them - are they genuine, un-altered, solid pieces?

 

In the country where I live, there are unfortunately no societies or sword shows, where I could get hands-on experience. Therefore I can just read (and ask) all the forums and browse dealer's sites.

 

Thank you,

Matus

[Matus]

Hi Paul,

 

many thanks for your comments - I think you hit the nail with the "first time buy". I went through this several times in different areas, sometimes I was lucky, sometimes not. But it was always an experience that you never find in books, no matter how many you've read. In my opinion, the internet forums changed this a bit, as you can interact with people and discuss in advance with experts - the only problem here is to know, what you actually want. But then again, many newcomers don't actually know what they want or they just thin they know :-)

So yes, I take all the previous posts (even if they sound not so positive) and appreciate that the authors spent the time writing their comments. I'm also aware, that my current Nihonto knowledge is very limited, but...

 

Thanks again!

Matus

[Marius]

And the second aspect is the age of the blade itself. That's the reason why I'm looking at the Muromachi period. I just would like to add a 400+ year old quality blade to my collection. Call me naive, but I feel a piece of Japan's history should be present in every arms and armour collection.

 

Matus,

 

keep in mind that the mounts of the swords in question are much, much later than the blades. You cannot yet distinguish a good blade from a mediocre one, so you may as well go for whichever of these blades (and their mountings) you like.

 

If I were you, I would go for a blade which will be easier sold, once you "outgrow" it. Which one of the three it is, remains to be determined, but knowing that many inexperienced buyers want a "Samurai" sword, which in their eyes is a long sword in mountings, I would point at the katana. Keep in mind, however, that the katana has been shortened.

 

A word of warning - once you buy a Japanese sword and start digging a bit (buying books, studying your sword, seeing more swords, etc.) you may get hooked to the extent that you will stay with nihonto full time and neglect or even sell other parts of your collection.

[David Flynn]

Matus, may I first comment on the Katana. Although the sword is old and in fairly good condition, the hamon appears to be rather close to the edge. This sword is polished with a hadori, which makes the hamon look wider than it actually is. Both the wakizashi, look pretty good. As already commented on earlier though, wakizashi are harder to sell.

[Matus]

Thanks fot the hints gentlemen.

 

BTW, Mariusz, how do you know that the katana has been shortened? Is it just because of the length (61cm) or by the way hamon is "flowing" in kissaki?

 

Matus

[Marius]

Thanks fot the hints gentlemen.

 

BTW, Mariusz, how do you know that the katana has been shortened? Is it just because of the length (61cm) or by the way hamon is "flowing" in kissaki?

 

I didn't even need to look at it (BTW, shortening is always done from the side of the tang) - it is stated in the description:

 

Shape : Osuriage-mumei

 

Even if it were not explicitly stated, you could see it looking at the nakago (tang) - you can see the remnant of the previous mekugi ana (peg hole) and you can see two shaeds of the patina on the nakago.

 

I agree with David's comment - this katana is quite "tired", i.e. it has been polished so many times that the blade got thinner and narrower, hence the hamon is now close to the edge. The boshi (i.e. the hamon in the tip, so to say) is also quite narrow.

 

If you asked me what I would buy - I would probably go for the Shitahara wakizashi - it is a stout blade and I like it (OK, that's me, others will like other swords). The Shitahara school was known for practical swords, but their artistic value is low. I also quite like the tsuba. It might even be early Edo (the tsuba). Others can certainly comment on the koshirae, I see only that the tsuba is not well fitted.

[chrisf]

Matus,why not explore options offered from other commercial sites,there is a list of dealers on the site's home page which will at least allow you to gather some ideas of what you will have to pay and you could always refer back to the membership for reccomendations.There are also salerooms that hold specialist auctions but you will need to be well armed study wise for that route.

I would look for a sword in 'old' polish,freshly polished swords can often conceal rather than reveal and while wakizashi are cheaper my choice would be for a katana which will generally be always more saleable if you choose to resell.

Slightly off topic perhaps but national pride insists that I correct you.The best DUELLING pistols were flintlocks and made by English gunmakers like the Manton brothers,Egg and Nock,the makers you mention made very pretty target pistols.

[Marius]

why not explore options offered from other commercial sites,there is a list of dealers on the site's home page which will at least allow you to gather some ideas of what you will have to pay and you could always refer back to the membership for reccomendations.

 

I couldn't agree more with Chris. You have started very well by choosing a reputable dealer and not trying to buy rubbish off eBay (though one can find decent pieces also there). Why not follow up in the same manner - take some time and see more swords (OK, let them be koto) before making a purchase. Patience pays off, in my time I didn't have it and ended up with a dud as a consequence.

[Matus]

Slightly off topic perhaps but national pride insists that I correct you.The best DUELLING pistols were flintlocks and made by English gunmakers like the Manton brothers,Egg and Nock,the makers you mention made very pretty target pistols.

 

Well, it's not so straight forward. It's quite tricky to distinguish between a target pistol and a duelling pistol. In general a duelling pistol shouldn't have any aiming aids nor the ability to adjust the trigger sensitivity (here I don't know the proper english word).

 

Other than that, it's impossible to tell them apart. And I definitely won't dispute the greatness of English gunmakers!

 

Back to the original topic - as I said before, without extensive travel, it's nearly impossible for me to see many blades in reality. I have been to almost all sites listed here and just AOI ART offering is more or less in line with my requirements / financial possibilities.

 

Cheers,

Matus

[kusunokimasahige]

Hello Matus,

 

I would say i have to agree with most of the posters to wait a little, study a little more and look at other sellers.

 

From the swords you posted i also would go for the wakizashi. Not because of the more intricate things you find more experienced collectors getting lyrical about, but because of the hamon, the shape of the blade and its koshirae which is simple but stout. However i would go by their advice and wait a little longer untill you know some more about these swords.

 

From your Napoleonic and 18th/19th century militaria collecting you should be experienced in the field of weapons and armour, fakes and non fakes, quality of bajonets as well as rifles etcetera. That same technique and experience you need to start applying to Nihonto. For instance, i could chose between an engraved Chasse potte bajonet or one which was better looking.

I went for the engraved one because it was from a famous factory and the engraving was directly linked to the Napoleonic era which had more historic value to me.

 

Dont let yourself be chased off by negative comments, just think that everyone on here has made the same mistakes when they started out collecting. Good luck if you purchase a nice nihonto, after you have studied a little more.

 

The discussion whether to sell swords after you are "done with them" i leave to others. To me a sword is the soul of the samurai, and when i buy one, it will stay with me untill the day i die, unless it is a military Gunto of WWII. That is why i wait with buying untill i can get an excellent sword.

 

KM

[Jean]

KM,

To me a sword is the soul of the samurai,

 

Misconception

 

Thousands of swords didn't belong to Samurai

[smac401]

Hello Matus,

I am new to Nihonto as well, I have a small collection of swords and growing collection of books. I have had the pleasure of using this site and the knowledge offered to keep me from waisting my money and time. I just bought a study piece for $200.00 from someone. I had looked at this piece quite a while back but decided to read alot more before buying it..

The blade was shortened, it had been sharpened by someone and part of it had been in a fire causing it to warp slightly to the right with some discoloration. It is a very old blade with a beautiful hamon and a fatal flaw which was the reasoning behind the shortening. My reason for writing this is because I didn't see some of this when I first saw the blade, but after reading and learning and actually putting may hands on varios blades, mainly through collectors with knowledge they jumped out at me.

Now to the money I spent for a study piece or should I say pieces, The tsuba is signed Efu Ju Masatoshi and the handle is a tightly wrapped wasp designed with beautiful menuki, appear to be ducks with gold bills and feet, on both sides. The blade has all the desire for study bad faults, bent, resharpened you name it but it was well worth the purchase if you look at the overall picture itself. I was taught to look at each part separate and judge it by that method.. Taking your time was the most important thing taught to me.

What I wrote may not help but listening to these guys will make the difference when it really counts, mainly in the pocket book and your collection will be just what you want.

 

Steve M.

[kusunokimasahige]

Jean, you are right it is a gross misconception indeed, but it is the way I feel about these swords...

 

I would not want a sword previously owned by eta or even a tradesman. (that was a joke attempt on my part... )

 

KM

[Matus]

Hi guys,

 

thanks a lot again for all your comments. I remember one statement I read in the past (don't know exactly on which forum) - "there will always be another sword". And also something to avoid impulse buying :-)

 

@ Mariusz (and of course everyone here): You wrote, that "The Shitahara school was known for practical swords, but their artistic value is low." What's the difference between an artistic blade and a practical one (in general)? Any pictures would be helpfull.

 

If you could recommend a single book as the starting point to a novice like me, which one would it be? The connoisseur's book of Japanese swords? It probably makes no sense to buy 10 books at once.

 

BTW, my preferences already changed a bit - some time ago I wouldn't consider a blade in shirasaya, now I know better.

 

Cheers,

Matus

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Matus,

The difference between a practical sword and an artistic one, if there is a difference, might be what you'll learn with years of study. There are no cheat sheets with Nihonto, no hints to help the novice instantly gain knowledge. As with every other complex subject, diligent study is necessary.

And it does make sense to buy 10 books at once; in fact it makes much more sense than buying a sword before you've bought, read, and understood at least 10 good books. I believe there is a recommended book list in the FAQs of the Message Board.

Grey

[Matus]

Hello Grey,

 

I got your point. I understand what you're saying and you are 100% correct. On the other hand, what I learnt both in my profession, during my studies and also as a collector/hobby-historian, the true masters (especially in the more complicated fields), can answer novice questions and explain complex/hidden notations very clearly, with an overview and deep understanding and foremost in a way, that motivates the novice to further study...

 

Cheers,

Matus

[Ken-Hawaii]

Aloha, Matus:

 

For book recommendations, the one that helped me the most when I was first starting out is The Connoisseurs Book of Japanese Swords by Kokan Nagayama. Chris Bowen wrote a review on it back in 1998 at http://www.koryu.com/books/jswords.html, & although I now have dozens of Nihonto reference books, this is the one I usually grab first.

 

BTW, my preferences already changed a bit - some time ago I wouldn't consider a blade in shirasaya, now I know better.

 

Ah, this is the type of self-realization that we all like to see! And the more you study, the more of these satori moments you will have.

[sanjuro]

Steve M.

 

I was once told when starting to collect, and have since seen it said here in much the same words, that "You will never learn about good swords by studying bad examples". A sword with many kizu and fatal faults has nothing to teach you other than what is bad. (very handy if you intend to devote yourself to collecting bad examples). A fine sword without kizu stands as an example to be aspired to and to study the real art and craft of the swordsmith.

 

It is common that new collectors buy cheaper and therefore lower quality swords, one has to start somewhere. However, to buy a sword with a range of fatal faults is to buy something merely for the sake of owning it at as cheap a price as possible, not to gain any knowledge from that ownership.

 

Just an observation.

[Lee Bray]

I was once told when starting to collect, and have since seen it said here in much the same words, that "You will never learn about good swords by studying bad examples".

 

This is very true but I think it's more applicable to established beginners in the field as opposed to outright beginners.

Once you know you have a passion for the study and appreciation of the sword, then progress to good swords. When you're a rank beginner, how can you know what a good sword is? Ok, it costs 10k and a NMB member said it was good...not particularly a great way to learn, in my opinion.

I've said before, the thought of an outright beginner owning a decent sword as their first piece scares me.

 

I don't think that a first sword should be a rusty clunker that cost tuppence from ebay either, as I don't think that will inspire much passion for the sword initially but a low end piece in reasonable polish and low end mounts is a good introduction to the field.

[Marius]

@Keith

 

Koto usually have some delaminations, so I would be cautious with an outright condemnation of kizu. Interesting viev on kizu is represented by Nakahara: http://gomabashi.blogspot.com/2011/01/r ... s-and.html

 

@Lee

 

I would make a distinction between the blade and the mountings. Too many mountings are a haphazard combination of parts. Studying blades is one thing, studying kodogu and mounts another.

 

@Matus

The difference between art sword and practical sword is sometimes in quality ("bundled swords" or kazu-uchi-mono) and sometimes in the minds of collectors and scholars (e.g. because the hamon on some blades tends to be darker than on others). Some schools are deemed less desirable, the best example is probably Bungo

[sanjuro]

Koto usually have some delaminations,

 

I Disagree...... None of my 4 koto blades (only two of which are papered), have delaminations.

 

Some koto blades certainly do have delaminations and a whole range of little faults, but one does not need to buy swords with fatal faults. Good examples with minimum (non fatal) faults are available at reasonable prices (dont ask me to define 'reasonable' please... 'Reasonable' is a relative term).

[Marius]

I Disagree...... None of my 4 koto blades (only two of which are papered), have delaminations.

Skilled polishers can do miracles Having said that, I do not doubt that your swords are OK, it is just that there is a whole range of techniques to "repair" such kizu as delaminations or pittings. Umegane is just one example. Another one is producing a fake "hamon" where there is none (e.g. in partially retempered blades). I really recommend Nakahara's book in this context.

[paulb]

Dear Mariusz

I agree with much of what you say but without wishing to re-open the debate and possible old wounds I would certainly not recommend Nakahara's book to any beginner. While many of his comments are thought provoking and interesting many are also somewhat eccentric if not down right wierd. To select the good from the strange requires some experience and I would be concerned that anyone just starting could get easily confused or even misled by it.

Best Regards

Paul

[Marius]

Paul,

 

I agree, I should have put in a "caveat". I am doing it now: Nakahara is not for beginners!

 

Be aware however, that the looks of a blade can be deceiving.

 

For beginners, besides books, of course, I would recommend reading information on this site:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/information.html

 

Besides being informative, it is also quite funny. Please take some thoughts presented there, with a grain of salt (e.g. regarding tekkotsu)

[Matus]

So I decided to buy two books instead of a blade now - "The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords" and "Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords: A Collector's Guide". Looking at your posts here, I got pretty scared from bying something right now. Before, I basically cared just about hamon presence (besides the period and kizu) and maybe papers, but it doesn't actually mean a lot as far as I can see now...

 

In the meantime, I saw a superb early german flintlock pistol and some nice french blades... damn, this hobby is really a nightmare when it comes to choices... but if anyone has a good early Muromachi blade for sale, don't hesitate to contact me :-)

 

Still, the artistic vs practical blade is not very clear to me... any examples please?

 

Cheers,

Matus