A question on Yari spear tip sizes.

[Tensho]

The problem with nakago sizes of yari. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Yari Nakago probably all started extra long, and just as with Nakago for swords, (but even more so), subsequent generations of artisans felt free to cut them down, as and when necessary. This might explain those yari blades with almost no Nakago left.

Like human hair though, once shortened, you cannot cut them longer.

 

I was watching some videos on the usage of Uchiné and they make out that Uchiné were used for anything and everything. A multitool weapon of last resort?

 

You could throw one right after firing an arrow in order to cover yourself if the enemy tried to hit you at close quarters in that defenceless moment while reloading. A back-up arrow?

 

You could use one instead of a Yoroi-dōshi Tantō for delivering the fatal stroke to the neck of a downed warrior.

 

As a short stabbing spear in its own right. Or you could strap it to the end of your bow to function as a longer spear.
Etc.

 

Ultimately it seems to me that they would have been decorative for most of their working life, demanding too much training for too little benefit.(?) 

[Tensho]

18 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Yari Nakago probably all started extra long, and just as with Nakago for swords, (but even more so), subsequent generations of artisans felt free to cut them down, as and when necessary. This might explain those yari blades with almost no Nakago left.
 

I completely agree. A Yari with a short nakago is useless for a mounted spear. You're just asking for the Ebu to get broken unless its extremely reinforced with steel bands etc.. Just look at Yanone, the nakago is usually at least 3x longer than the head and these are just arrows. 

 

I wish there was more discussion/resources about Yari to go on. They do seem to be getting more popular though, so who knows?

[Dave R]

 The one I posted was bought a few years ago in 2016 and has been examined at the R.A. Leeds, and the mei is still visible on the nakago, so not cut down. The resident expert suggested "Kanahisi" (hope I remembered that one right) and a late 17th century date. Not all started long and ended short.

 Methinks it was made for a Te Yari or a Makura Mari for home defence, and probably quite inexpensively.... like the one below.

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Hard to read but could it have been 包久 Kanehisa perhaps?

[Tensho]

4 hours ago, Dave R said:

 The one I posted was bought a few years ago in 2016 and has been examined at the R.A. Leeds, and the mei is still visible on the nakago, so not cut down.

How long is the nakago? I'm assuming around 12cm? 

 

Here I go contradicting myself. This is one of my dozen+ Yari. Retains the original nakago. 

Nagasa 14.5cm

Nakago 18.7cm. 

 

Mei is 4.5cm below the kerakubi and last kanji 3.5cm above the mekugi-ana.  I have them signed above and below mekugi-ana. Nakago tapers down to a thin taper which is common on every yari i have. 

 

I have it mounted as a te-yari. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Would we discover more magic in the numbers if we measured in Shaku, Sun, Bu and Rin?

[Dave R]

17 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Hard to read but could it have been 包久 Kanehisa perhaps?

 

 I think you have the right of it there, I did wonder if I had remembered it correctly.

[Bugyotsuji]

In Japanese unfortunately but there is an interesting article here on the possible uses and drawbacks of Uchiné, including the contact for a martial arts school that still continues the tradition.

PS One usage is to ward of the blows of an enemy, so presumably it would be advantageous for something 1 Shaku to 1.5 Shaku in length to have a steel/iron core (longish Nakago).

https://saitamagyoda.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-394.html?sp
 

[IBot]

These items must have been really useful in a norimono, being small and handy. Providing there is no tassle or other attached cordage, they could be thrown at an attaker gaining enough time to climb out and draw a sword.

Ian Bottomley

[Bugyotsuji]

So if there was a cord attached, there must have been some way to quickly undo it, or would they have cut it ASAP?

[Dave R]

10 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

So if there was a cord attached, there must have been some way to quickly undo it, or would they have cut it ASAP?

 

 ... Or used to pull it back for another cast, like the Rope Dart.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope_dart#:~:text=The rope dart is a,rope to pull it back.

 

[John C]

On 10/23/2022 at 8:15 AM, Tensho said:

This is one of my dozen+ Yari.

Reviving an old discussion about yari.

Matt:

Noticed you have an extensive collection and I have a question about a yari in shirasaya I just picked up. Based on the previous discussion and your experience, would you consider this a kago yari, uchine, or something else? I ask because it is quite small - ha is 4.5 inches and overall about 14.5 inches.

Regards,

John C. 

[Tensho]

I'm going to have to go with what I said earlier.  Unless it is mounted as such(uchine or Kago yari) there is no way of knowing. Even then, the ones I have been seeing coming out of Japan seem questionable on much age. I have seen pictures of a matched set of arrows, quiver, and uchine. All nicely lacquered with gold kamon. The uchine koshirae was considered to be that of the edo period, but the Yari itself dated to the muromachi period. 

 

I recently acquired a book about Uchine, and in it are illustrations and translations taken from books/scrolls from different schools discussing uchine all written in the last 50 or so years of the Edo period. The early mounting of them was what one would call a Kago yari. A short spear/shaft made for throwing lacking feathers. They all seem to state the same thing though, in that the blade length is around 6cm all the way up to 21cm. That is a huge variance and contradicts a lot of things that I had originally thought. 

 

 

[John C]

3 hours ago, Tensho said:

I'm going to have to go with what I said earlier

Thank you. As a follow-up, is there any way to tell an approximate age based on style/size or did the various styles run the gamut of periods?

It seems to be very nicely made with nie along the temper line and is in decent polish. Nakago is a dark rust so I'm thinking not too new. Early meiji perhaps?

 

John C.

[Tensho]

A late reply because I really don't have an answer for you. I was researching yari and dates for a while but just stopped. 

 

The one thing that keeps getting told over and over again is a long Kerakubi is an indicator of old age. Well, here is one with NBTHK Hozon papers dated to mid to late muromachi period. Notice anything?

Small kerakubi, and this is even an Omi yari at over 23 inch blade. 

 

Here's one signed and dated 1636.

 

Here's some of my older ones. The far left one is an Omi yari.

 

Unfortunately the nakago is heavily corroded away and is signed but to hard to read. The problem with determining age by nakago is that the condition is all over the place on these. Probably because how they were stored or the ebu material itself.

[John C]

Thank you for your research. I am assuming mine is not old, however I was hoping to get as close as early or late whatever century. 

 

John C.

[Bugyotsuji]

If I take my yari to the local NBTHK sword appreciation society, they will look at the blade for evidence of which smith might have made it. One of my yari had NBTHK paperwork suggesting Den Munemitsu, for example. So you can see there is some argument for dating a special spear by the workmanship. (Some members on the other hand, said that the hamon was too far gone for their liking and showed no further interest in it. )

The same spear was in beautiful original koshirae fastenings, and looked great in a display, so for me it had greater overall value than a few sword-blade nerds afficionados might grant.

 

Spears were made in massive numbers over the centures, in northern Kyushu for the Korean invasions by the 下坂 Shimosaka for example. A Mei can often fix a time and a place for you. Was your blade worth affixing a Mei to?

 

Of course if you want to go way back, then you reach an age of hoko, when curved-bladed spears were used in warfare not so much for stabbing but for waving around and causing sideways hits as much as for cutting.

 

 

 

 

[rgus48]

Here is one I have had a while. Would love to find someone that would make me an accurate pole for it.