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A question on Yari spear tip sizes.

kusunokimasahige
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IanB Veteran

IanB

Posted
Posted

The second of Eric's pictures is an uchine without doubt - and a nice one too. The striped item is rather odd. I suspect it is the top of a yari that has been cut off and had a bunch of chicken feathers attached. The ball-shaped end to the shaft is rather suspicious and probably designed to cover the cut end. As for the item with the cut-outs on either side of the blade!! How many yari has anyone seen with crocodile skin on the shaft? I have seen pouches done in croc skin but not yari. The blade (?) seems to have a small socket that is very un-Japanese. My guess is that it came from the top of a park railing. :badgrin: :badgrin:

Ian Bottomley

kusunokimasahige Grand Master

kusunokimasahige

Posted
  • Author
Posted

What would that be called in Japanese ? xD

 

About the Norimono... though it looks nice, to me it looks like a movie prop, stencilled decoration, not maki-e at all.

fair price though, but indeed the Fukishima location does make you wonder...

 

KM

Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Veteran

Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini

Posted
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Hi Ian.

 

This one is definitively not my cup of tea (bet yours neither), but interesting nonetheless.

This mount might support at least the possiblity croc was used for some reason (resistance ? fashion ?) on yari as well.

To the owner of the pic : Jo, the pic is on my photobucket. If you've any problem with my use of it drop me a line.

 

coccodrillosututtalamontaturacrocodilei.jpg

Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Veteran

Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini

Posted
Posted
As for the one that Carlo thought was more like an uchine..

 

To be clear, I said

 

IMHO the one you shows is trying to resemble an uchine, not a short type of Yari.

 

suggesting it was an oddly assembled one.

 

What I was saying about the small yari is that it is of a SIZE that would actually fit inside of a Palanquin. It is in Japan and is labeled as having something to do with Palaquins.

 

I think the old say "Size doesn't matter" sometimes is right as I fully agree with Piers :

 

any weapon carried in a proper Norimono (Kago) would tend to have been of beautiful quality and decoration, as befitted a Daimyo, etc. Eg lacquered haft, etc.
estcrh Veteran

estcrh

Posted
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My feeling is Kago Yari were of no practical use,

Anyway the term exists and needed a pic. I' be grateful if anybody can post a surely legitimate item.

I agree with this, it would be nice to see an actual verifiable one. My guess is that it would be small around 3 ft (1 meter) and like piers said rather fancy. I am not suggesting that the small one I pictured is an actual kago yari (since I have not seen a real one for sure), rather that it is being portrayed as one more then an uchine. It is small and was made to look fancy, or someones opinion of fancy. It does have a unique blade though, anyone notice? Was the blade shaped like this after it was made or was it made like this. I have never seen this shape before.

 

kagoyarib.jpg

kagoyaric.jpg

kagod.jpg

Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Veteran

Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini

Posted
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:shock: :shock:

 

Rust color *seems* the same even on the tang part that is enlarging, before the polish.

If genuine, such a shape *might* be intended to put more weigth toward the tip. Maybe a real Uchine put into a fantasy mount ? :dunno:

However I can't see the need of *two* Mekugiana on such a short tang for a throwing weapon.

 

EDIT : naaaa, Kerakubi looks too odd.

IanB Veteran

IanB

Posted
Posted

All, Several years ago I bought what was described as a kago yari for the Royal Armouries collection from a Kyoto dealer. I will be going into work next Tuesday, so if you will be patient I will take some pictures. It is small - very small - cetrainly less than a meter long. It is also genuinely old and not very decorative. I remember that the shaft is mainly plain wood about 15 - 20mm diam and it has a dull gilded upper half. Most memorable is the scabbard which is covered in bristles and when on the blade makes the whole thing look like a small sweeping brush. I remember that the conservation people went a bit green thinking about what species of animal life might be living in it - putting it in deep freeze for months before allowing it into stores.

Ian Bottomley

estcrh Veteran

estcrh

Posted
Posted
All, Several years ago I bought what was described as a kago yari for the Royal Armouries collection from a Kyoto dealer. I will be going into work next Tuesday, so if you will be patient I will take some pictures.
Ian....waiting patiently :dunno:
IanB Veteran

IanB

Posted
Posted

Eric, Oh dear. I've been in all day showing visitors around the museum and stores and completey forgot to take the pictures. I don't think it was senility, just that I was rather distracted. To be honest I haven't stopped all day. However, I promised and I will definitely remember next time I go in. Please be patient with me a little longer.

Ian

estcrh Veteran

estcrh

Posted
Posted

Ian I am in no hurry and while I was waiting I started to look at all the available pictures online of these extra short types of yari and I have yet to find one that seems to be authentic. I found another one that was labeled as being a modern shaft with an authentic blade and a couple of bare blades that were being called kago yari as if there was a specific type of blade which could be discerned from other types of yari. Here are some links.

 

New shaft

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/j ... -kago-yari

 

The notorious Mr Miller

 

Robert Winter

http://www.winterjapaneseart.com/index. ... &Itemid=76

 

Nihonto message board

viewtopic.php?f=4&p=51937

IanB Veteran

IanB

Posted
Posted

Eric and Carlo, Thank you for your patience. I've had a look at some of the 'kago yari' posted and two points strike me. Those with shafts look just too long in my opinion. Kago or norimon were pretty tight squeezes and by the time there was an occupant inside there would be precious little room to spare. Manouvering anything much longer than 2 foot around inside would be virtually impossible. What I think we are really being illustrated are 'pillow spears'. Secondly, small heads with long tangs would again not fit the bill. Don't forget you have to split the shaft to carve out the wood for the tang. With some of the heads shown, the shaft would need to be split for almost the full length to accommodate the tangs. I think some of these small heads may well have been on much longer shafts. European pikes measuring 17 or 18 feet often have heads that are only 4" or so long.

Ian

Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Veteran

Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini

Posted
Posted
I think some of these small heads may well have been on much longer shafts. European pikes measuring 17 or 18 feet often have heads that are only 4" or so long.

Ian

 

Makes sense to me too.

How about the short, tapering shaft ? Might be the shirasaya mounting was intended to follow a rule or is just what it was supposed to be even if the blade is not originally intended for a Kago Yari ? Shouldn't be a problem of resistance in a "resting saya" so seems not related to the lenght of the nakago., whenever the blade wasn't originally intended to be a Kago Yari.

kusunokimasahige Grand Master

kusunokimasahige

Posted
  • Author
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I think these Kago yari of which links were posted have tangs which might be too long for inside a Norimono, just like Ian said.

 

The small sankaku yari with the shortened tang from the video could be a Kago yari or a pillow yari indeed imho.

 

KM

kusunokimasahige Grand Master

kusunokimasahige

Posted
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Posted

Here is my new yari, received it today, whether it could be a Kago or not i dont know.. Sorry it might look :oops: to you...

 

Needs to be polished first. (half finished, probably replica but nice enough for re-enactment)

 

Total length : 36.8 cm

Lenghth of blade: 13.2 cm

Width: 2cm

Diameter ana : 0.5cm

 

SAM_0477.jpg

 

SAM_0478.jpg

 

SAM_0480.jpg

 

SAM_0481.jpg

 

Balanced it on my finger, balance is well, tapped the tang softly with a metal bar and it had a distinct pinggg sound

which tells me it was highly likely forged and not routed on a machine out of a plain metal bar...

 

Would be happy to know if it is Kago-Yari size or "normal" Yari size...

 

But one of you will know for sure. :)

 

KM

 

Reaction to Keith, see (below)

 

Yup, not too many dollaa' ... well spent xD (would not find an original for that amount anyway...)

As i said.. for re-enactment use !! ;)

  • 11 years later...
Bugyotsuji Grand Master

Bugyotsuji

Posted
Posted

Sadly Eric is no longer with us, and many of the photos have disappeared. I was wondering how we might define an uchiné.

 

Borrowed with thanks to Carlo from the first page of this thread. Fuzzy lettering but it seems to say a blade length of 5 or 6 Sun.(?)

E4016F1F-EAA4-4F54-9EFE-59BB4DDB9431.thumb.jpeg.31f68a76139d9b2451004291a01cbc23.jpeg

 

Tensho Rising Star

Tensho

Posted
Posted

Realistically, you will never be able to say that a yari was used as an uchi-ne unless it comes mounted as such, and you can verify the mountings as being original.  If what is true anything under 19cm was used. This is pretty standard Yari blade size.

 

A few pictures of broken mounts I have seen show the nakago going all the way to the end of the fletching. So even basing it on nakago size wouldn't be of much help. 

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