moss Posted March 26, 2011 Report Posted March 26, 2011 Morning all, I thought after more than a year of looking at this Wakizashi I should post a few pictures. Yes it is mine ,no it didn't come from Ebay and Yes I'm well aware it is no Juyo piece. It did come from a member of the board and no need to hold back. So here it is warts and all for no other reason than to stimulate a little discussion. Any thoughts on the mei would be appreciated. Bishu Jyu Hisatsugu,perhaps it is gimei????? I will post measurements later on today as unfortunately I'm at work right now. I found the measurements here at work. Length overall 614 mm Nagasa 505 mm Sori 16.5 mm Kasane 6 mm Mihaba 29.5 mm Cheers Moss Quote
moss Posted March 27, 2011 Author Report Posted March 27, 2011 Some more pics. I'll get rid of the other post that I made a pigs ear of. Cheers Moss Quote
gtstcactus Posted March 27, 2011 Report Posted March 27, 2011 Jean says I'm the least qualified to give an opinion, and he's probably right! Does the hamon continue into the kissaki? I'm not sure if I'm seeing the boshi... Looks like a nice enough piece, but what do I know! Quote
moss Posted March 27, 2011 Author Report Posted March 27, 2011 Jason , To answer your question ....yes of course the boshi continues into the kissaki. It also has a very nice turn back,I will try to capture it for you later once I'm home. I think that the small comment from Jean is aimed squarely to quieten you down a little. That is one man who would not say a harsh word or make any comment for that matter to cause discomfort. Keep looking the pic's will arrive tonight. Moss Quote
paulb Posted March 27, 2011 Report Posted March 27, 2011 Hi Moss, I think it looks to be a good sword. Certainly a lot better than many we have seen recently. I cant comment on the signature without go through my books, neither my memory nor my knowledge of Bizen work are good enough to make an off-the-cuff comment on its authenticity. Looks to be a powerful piece. I am not sure whether it is the the images or the polish but I can see too much detail in either hada or hamon. Can you describe them? Is there much going on in the hamon? I am assuming it is nioi based but is there any nie showing in it? More importantly after a year of looking what do you think you have? best regards Paul Quote
moss Posted March 27, 2011 Author Report Posted March 27, 2011 Hello Paul, What I see with this blade in hand is a choji midare hamon. Mokume hada that is has probably been cleaned for a few years too many. It is nioi deki and there is abundant utsuri in long waves. The boshi is a continuation of the hamon (Midare Komi I think)but very hard to follow and impossible to photograph. Oh and to add there is no nie that I can see. Overall it is a pleasant enough blade as is to look at, but to really bring out its features I would guess a visit to the togishi is in order. This probably will never happen in my lifetime so it will just have to stay maintained. I am happy with it remaining in old polish ,it just adds a certain softness. I am not good enough to call gimei or not ,any help will be recieved happily. Cheers Moss Quote
paulb Posted March 27, 2011 Report Posted March 27, 2011 Hi Moss, I will take a look at the books this evening regarding the mei but expect others will get you an answer before I can. What you are describing is pretty classic Bizen. The fact that you are seeing abundant utsuri is a plus, especially if the blade is in less than perfect polish. The lack of nie might also be expected and help pinpoint the date a little tighter. I will have a trawl later on and see if anything comes up Best regards paul Quote
moss Posted March 27, 2011 Author Report Posted March 27, 2011 Paul, Much appreciated. Regards Moss Quote
gtstcactus Posted March 27, 2011 Report Posted March 27, 2011 Hi Moss, I realise the boshi continues into the kissaki, perhaps I didn't word things as well as I could have. I was just unsure if it was the images or polish that mean I had a hard time seeing it. I'd enjoy seeing more pics. Quote
moss Posted March 27, 2011 Author Report Posted March 27, 2011 Jason, Sadly it is near on impossible to capture this boshi. The blade is in old polish and has been cleaned for what would be guessed the best part of a century. I will have another go with a LED torch but even at all kinds of angles it is weak at best. If I can nail the photography issues I have a few reasonable blades to put up for comment,like I said to you previously the camera is not my friend. Cheers Moss Quote
John A Stuart Posted March 27, 2011 Report Posted March 27, 2011 I agree with the reading Bishu ju Hisatsugu. There is reference to only one Bizen smith who signs this way. 1306. Now you have to decide, did he make wakizashi signed katana mei in 1306 Tokuji era Kamakura period? Is the nakago correct? John Quote
paulb Posted March 27, 2011 Report Posted March 27, 2011 Hi Moss, Like John I could only find one reference to a smith signing exactly that way. Hawleys lists several Hisatsugu's working between 1306 and 1360 but only the first signed Bishu Hisatsugu. Unfortunately I cannot find oshigata for any of them. I dont think your sword is as early as the 1306 man. If I had to guess I would put it nearer 1430-1500. On the upside he is not a well documented smith so one has to wonder why someone would go to the trouble of faking his mei. I am not sure I can find anything more (I admit what we have isnt much) but sometime there is just not a lot of information published. Sorry not to be of more help Quote
Jean Posted March 27, 2011 Report Posted March 27, 2011 Hi Moss, Your picture are pretty good, suguta, lack of nie points toward a 15th century Bizen blade. This blade is of quality. For the mei you could send a picture of it to Gordon Robson at NTHK and he will be able to answer you on the validity of the mei, for a small fee. Now, if it is not secret, (I don't want to be noisy) it will be interesting to know what you pay for it, thus enabling some young members to see what can be the cost of an old polish decent blade. Your pictures makes me think a bit of Bizen Yoshii school, some kind of regular ko gunome/ko choji hamon Quote
Mark Green Posted March 27, 2011 Report Posted March 27, 2011 Hi Moss, I think your sword looks pretty good. Has the Nakago been cleaned? It doesn't look old Koto to me. It could be an "after the flood" made sword. It looks well made though. Near flawless, from what I can see. The old polish looks quite fine to me. I can't see why you would need to polish this one anyway. Mark G Quote
Jean Posted March 27, 2011 Report Posted March 27, 2011 The nakago has surely been clean (from the pictures), a close up of the nakago on both sides is welcome Quote
Brian Posted March 27, 2011 Report Posted March 27, 2011 Let's say you are a newcommer to swords, and you see this one. The first things that should spring to mind (maybe not first...but among the first) should be: Nice sugata, not looking contrived or unnatural It has a decent hi, so someone took the time to carve a decent groove. Maybe polished a bit and rounded off later..but still well enough cut The nakago has nicely cut yasurime and shape. Someone took the time and expense to fit it with a double habaki. Although these are not enough to tell if it is a good blade, they immediately make you think to look closer and investigate the sword. Looks nice..maybe some light uchiko over a long time will yield results? Brian Quote
gtstcactus Posted March 27, 2011 Report Posted March 27, 2011 Brian, thats a good post.... helpful for a newcomer like myself. thanks... Quote
moss Posted March 27, 2011 Author Report Posted March 27, 2011 Hello all, Many thanks Paul for having a look at the mei. It is a mystery why someone would gimei a rather obscure tosho. The only reason that springs to mind is that perhaps they thought there would be a better than average chance of passing it off. To me it is irrelevant whether gimei or not the blade is sound ,healthy and was a reasonable price. Which brings me to your question Jean. I paid $1600 Au which to bring into context was $1200 US approx at the time. Then as I do now I still think this blade was a nice buy.IMHO There is a lesson in all this to new members. This blade was offered to a newbie who knocked it back as too expensive,then preceeded to throw his hard earned into finding the missing national treasures on Ebay. I'm not saying I'm smarter by any means than others just that I took advice from the board,there are some nice buys that happen in house In fact I now only have 2 blades that were not bought off the board the others all came from other more advanced members. Infinately safer and a much more pleasant experience buying off fellow members. Jean ,I think I will contact Gordon Robson for his opinion. I am fairly certain of his answer though And yes the nakago has lost some of its patina,with all of its warts I'm still happy. Thanks for looking and the comments. I will post the other blades over time. Cheers Moss Quote
Jean Posted March 28, 2011 Report Posted March 28, 2011 Good Blade, Moss, I know a lot of people who did worse when beginning (including myself) Quote
johnb Posted March 28, 2011 Report Posted March 28, 2011 Would it be fair to say the kissaki has been reshaped? The geometry looks a little off... IMHO. Johnb Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 28, 2011 Report Posted March 28, 2011 Methink both Johnb and Jacques are right. Ura of the kissaki might have had polishing problems. Yokote seems disaligned and Hi shorther. But might be the angle of the pics. Quote
Brian Posted March 28, 2011 Report Posted March 28, 2011 Yep..I did mention that I thought the lines had been altered later. If you look at the overall hi though, I think you can see it was well cut and properly done. However you can see it has been polished incorrectly and rounded a bit. Buffing will do that too..which is why it is such a bad idea and should be avoided like the plague. Still..there is enough to make you look further. Brian Quote
Jacques Posted March 28, 2011 Report Posted March 28, 2011 Hi, Brian, Hi are not at the same level look at them near the kissaki and near the machi. The one ending upon the mei has a bad finish. Quote
moss Posted March 28, 2011 Author Report Posted March 28, 2011 Hello all, Have we reached the point where I post a bunch of emotionally distressed messages. Demand a refund in full from the seller, stamp my feet,generally caterwaul and make an ass of myself. Nah I will post a few more pic's Jacques there appears to be a fair bit of wear around the nakago end of the groove ,could that be distorting the line ? Nice to have some discussion on this blade and get to see what members with more knowledge see from a photo. John,another photo of the Kissaki as well . Cheers Moss Quote
Lee Bray Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 Pure speculation on my part, Moss, so don't get too emotionally distraught but perhaps the discrepancy in the hi near the mei could explain the cleaning and possibly spurious signature? My thoughts being a previous mei was filed off and a new one added. The yasurimei on the nakago ura look sharper and more defined which makes me think the mei side has been altered. The lack of definition in the hi termination could be caused by losing steel in that area from filing the nakago. I could also be entirely wrong and it's just wear from 500 years of tsuba interaction. Quote
moss Posted March 29, 2011 Author Report Posted March 29, 2011 Hi Lee , I'm with you on the tsuba interaction and of course there is another reason . I was given a very nice email explaining the difference in the hi. which I suppose stands to reason ,thanks. I will look later at the remainder of the photos and put up another Moss Quote
moss Posted March 29, 2011 Author Report Posted March 29, 2011 Hi all, I had a look through the photos and found a shot of perhaps the reason the hi were cut to different depths. I never thought to include it as it is a very small opening of a fold. Maybe that answers that the hi was actually cut in a skilled manner,it was just that an opening appeared and then had to be worked in a way to reduce it visually? I appologise if it caused any mental anguish ,just never thought it was important enough to include. Cheers Moss Quote
Jean Posted March 29, 2011 Report Posted March 29, 2011 More complicated Moss, can be the other way around. Because of the Hi, ware appear easier at polishing Quote
moss Posted March 29, 2011 Author Report Posted March 29, 2011 Yes Jean, The hi on the side with the opening is longer and marginally deeper. Would I be wrong then thinking that the tosho tried to cut out as much as possible to remove the opening? I would have thought if he could salvage the work then a little inconsistancy is a small price to pay There must have been alot of explicatives when a ware appeared or in a case that they were trying to cut one out? Moss Quote
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