Jersey shinsa show

[Rich T]

They were being " conservitive" with all names Milt. If they were not sure, it seemed they pinked it.

 

Just on this, I think that is a good thing. If they just papered because it sort of looked ok, or was 50/50, then that could lead to major disasters later on. Big names have an even better chance of bouncing remember.

 

What if you are a dealer, and they papered a sword based on "well it's close enough", you then sell it, the new owner sends it to the NBTHK for a higher paper and they bounce it. It would then be on you to refund the mony if the buyer wanted to. You would have to take it up with the NTHK who woueld in all likely hood say, " we are sticking by our descision" and a fight would embroil from there.

 

I think, from what I have heard and read on this lately, that some people expect this process to be easy. It will never be easy. I wonder if some folk expect that after a month or two study, they have it pinned and know if the sword is genuine or not. They then find plenty to complain about when it is bounced, by people or a person who does shinsa on a regular basis with many many years of study. This is not a generalizasion, but there seems to be a lot of unhappy folk. If you have a genuine greivence, it is easy to walk up to the judges and say, can we discuss this later please ?

 

I heard that someone walked up with a stamped Showato, was told not to submit it, they did any way and were unhappy that it bounced. I wonder if at the start of each Western shinsa ?, a brief 30 minute class on what can be and cannot be papered would be appropriate ?, also suggesting things to know when submitting shinsa.

 

Joining the NCJSC gives new members a copy of the NTHK novice course which has an extensive article on Shinsa by Dr Gordon Robson. This is a good read and can be quite helpful also for those interested.

 

The cynic in me wonders if lot of folk buy up swords at estates and on Ebay and bang 10 or so into shinsa and hope for the best, if that is/was the case, then hope is all they have desu nei ?.

 

Are, they joys of Nihonto :-)

 

Rich

[Bungo]

hhahahhahaaa, wait till you submit something and see them bounce like a rubber ball.

Human nature to bitch when things don't turn out the way one wanted it.

 

I have developed a new strategy............. get Gordon a bit tipsy ( two beers will do it, but not drunk , then he won't remember a darn thing ), feed him ideas about one's swords BEFORE submission, if he says go for it......then submit the sword. Cut down on the pink %, you think ?

 

All joking aside, it's good they are tough, got to keep it that way to make the paper " meaningful ". But sometimes I wish the shinsa team can be a wee bit more " specific " on attribution to mumei pieces. Like calling it Kyo-kinko isn't really telling us much, yes ?

 

Milt O

[Rich T]

I have a koz signed by the 15th Goto master...........

 

same identical example illustrated in Kozuka100, Claude Thuault Collection book , page 198, koz # 87 ( yes, I compare the mei/kao strokes very very closely ).

 

 

That could well be, but I would not use an auction catalogue as proof of authentisity Milt. There are quite a few items in the Compton collection that come under scruitiny ( tosogu I am meaning, not swords ) There were just as many items that were gime when the 1900's gentleman were collecting I am sure, it's no different between then and now.

 

I think books like the Kinko Meikan and the Toso Kodogu Meiji Taikei are better examples of books when looking for correct mei. Thats just my opinion.

 

Rich

[Rich T]

hhahahhahaaa, wait till you submit something and see them bounce like a rubber ball.

 

LOL, been there done that.

 

............. get Gordon a bit tipsy ( two beers will do it,

 

Excellent news, my trip to Japan will be cheaper than I expected LOL.

 

All joking aside, it's good they are tough, got to keep it that way to make the paper " meaningful ". But sometimes I wish the shinsa team can be a wee bit more " specific " on attribution to mumei pieces

 

I think it is great that they offer an indication at all. The NBTHK will not stick their neck out like that and it leaves a bit of an empty feeling when you just have nothing.

 

Rich

[Bungo]

" I think it is great that they offer an indication at all. The NBTHK will not stick their neck out like that and it leaves a bit of an empty feeling when you just have nothing.

"

 

 

arrrrrhhhh, they don't, they just called it Kyo-kinko.

Wouldn't it be nice if they are a bit specific ? Like called it kyo-kino, in the style of Ishiguro or something like that ?

 

 

milt O

[David Flynn]

Milt, consciousness is all in the mind!!! :lol:

Dave

[Pete Klein]

Although swords are not my primary interest I have noticed something in big black Kanji on the NTHK origami: Sho Shin, meaning authentic/genuine. They are therefore very careful about what they call 'authentic/genuine'. Also, when you get your NBTHK submission back there is a little yellow tag which went along the path with it at the shinsa. If it failed it usually will have written in Japanese why it failed, as in gimei, modern, etc. Not as good as the NTHK worksheets but a lot of folks miss that because it is in Japanese. I have, unfortunately, had much experience in this LOL!

[fan]

hi ricky and curran,

it was good seeing you guys at the show. i dropped out of the nyc sword scene for a while. ricky, how does it feel to get to hold all those swords? must be pretty interesting. and curran, sorry about calling you out while you were biting on a spring roll. btw, were there anymore demonstrations later that night on saturday?

eric

[DavidF]

I submitted a sword to Moses Becerra to put through shinsa.

 

I have emailed and phoned him and have not heard anything from him.

 

Is anyone else having problems contacting him for shinsa results?

 

 

DaveF.

[DavidF]

I just got my shinsa results from Moses.

 

Shoshin, "77 points Tosa Yoshikuni" :D

 

I am soooo... jazzed!

 

 

DaveF.

[Bungo]

I just got my shinsa results from Moses.

 

Shoshin, "77 points Tosa Yoshikuni" :D

 

I am soooo... jazzed!

 

 

DaveF.

 

JUST SO YOU KNOW, the RONIN PROBED bIG mO'S BEHIND TO GET HIM TO HAVE A MOVE ON..............

[Mark Green]

Here is one of my pinks.

Wonderful shinto wak signed 'Mitsu no kami FW Nobusada' side one, Shimosaka school signiture on the other. Known smith, have had about a half dozen people in Japan say this mei is good, great looking sword.

Pinked as Yokohama export. WHAT!!!!

It was though there was some kind of mix up, or they hadn't even looked at the sword.

I doubt that mr. Nobusada made a sword for export 200 years into the future.

I've sent the mei to some friends in Japan again. They said WHAT! as well.

If this is bitching about the shinsa, than yup, I guess it is.

I guess I should have gone back and asked if there was a mix up of something. I was just floored by the result.

I was just wondering, even if a smith was known to make swords for export, how the heck would anyone know that a sword was made for that reason. That would surely be just a guess at best. He could have just as well made it for his brother. or friend, or some samurai commissioned him, or many other reason. Mark G

[David Flynn]

Mark,

I believe they had a q&a session on saturday afternoon after the shinsa.

Dave

[QuangD]

Here is one of my pinks.

Wonderful shinto wak signed 'Mitsu no kami FW Nobusada' side one, Shimosaka school signiture on the other. Known smith, have had about a half dozen people in Japan say this mei is good, great looking sword.

Pinked as Yokohama export. WHAT!!!!

It was though there was some kind of mix up, or they hadn't even looked at the sword.

I doubt that mr. Nobusada made a sword for export 200 years into the future.

I've sent the mei to some friends in Japan again. They said WHAT! as well.

If this is bitching about the shinsa, than yup, I guess it is.

I guess I should have gone back and asked if there was a mix up of something. I was just floored by the result.

I was just wondering, even if a smith was known to make swords for export, how the heck would anyone know that a sword was made for that reason. That would surely be just a guess at best. He could have just as well made it for his brother. or friend, or some samurai commissioned him, or many other reason. Mark G

 

Mark G,

 

That is interesting result: Yokohama export market product. Why don't you send the blade to NTHBK for another opinion? Maybe, that might turn out better.

[Mark Green]

Yes, I know there was a Q&A after the shinsa. I went to the city, and didn't get back till late. Had to leave out early Sunday.

I should have brought that sword back, and said WHAT!, as soon as I saw the pink. I was just overcome with disbelief.

We had a few others nearly as off. Oh well, lesson learned.

I will put much less stock in 'paper' now.

 

Mark G

[fan]

i got a pink with comments saying it is low quality and made for hte export market. was teh "export" thing the theme of the pink this tim around?

also, does anyone know the % of pink, and the % of 70 pointers, 73 pointer, etc?

eric

[Bungo]

since it's an oversea shinsa..................

by default, ALL items submitted were " export "

 

 

Milt THE ronin

[ironchef.]

Eric,

 

The shinsa pass/fail ratio info might be available come our next club meeting at the end of this month. I'll try to contact John Prough tonight and see if that information is available yet. As far as how many 70 pointers or 73 pointers there were, I'm not sure if that specific data is kept track of.

 

Ricky

[DavidF]

Here is one of my pinks.

Wonderful shinto wak signed 'Mitsu no kami FW Nobusada' side one, Shimosaka school signiture on the other. Known smith, have had about a half dozen people in Japan say this mei is good, great looking sword.

Pinked as Yokohama export. WHAT!!!!

 

I don't think the "look" of the sword had a whole lot to do with the judging. The wak I submitted was definitely out of polish and stained with rust, but it scored 77 points.

 

I doubt that mr. Nobusada made a sword for export 200 years into the future. I've sent the mei to some friends in Japan again. They said WHAT! as well.

 

It depends on how many Nobusada smiths there were and their periods of productivity. From all the posts, it does look like the judging was very conservative, which is a boon for us that did paper and a bust for those that did not. Do you have an example signature to compared it to? Post pics of the mei and an example signature or a biography of smith in question. While we are not experts in validating mei's it would be interesting to see where the judges might have questions.

 

I was just wondering, even if a smith was known to make swords for export, how the heck would anyone know that a sword was made for that reason. That would surely be just a guess at best. He could have just as well made it for his brother. or friend, or some samurai commissioned him, or many other reason. Mark G

 

Although I'm not sure that the school's signature is a common feature on high quality nihonto, post some pictures of your sword and let's see what the blade looks like. Maybe there is some feature of the blade that would identify it as an export blade (e.g. a thin blade, bar steel, thin or non-existent hamon).

 

 

DaveF.

[QuangD]

since it's an oversea shinsa..................

by default, ALL items submitted were " export "

 

 

Milt THE ronin

 

Yo Milt,

 

You are getting more funnier with a remarks. Anyhow, how are you? I took my 15 months boy to Shinsa....He was enjoying and ready do Kantei for all the swords.....Pinked.....and more pinked papers.....his favorite colors. By accident, he got on hold on my Shinsa results and ready to tear them apart.....or throw on the floor....

[QuangD]

I just got my shinsa results from Moses.

 

Shoshin, "77 points Tosa Yoshikuni" :D

 

I am soooo... jazzed!

 

 

DaveF.

 

DaveF,

 

Congrats! Milt might have to pushed Big Moses during the Shinsa Lobby for higher points otherwise you might have only 73 points like mine.

 

Yesterday, I found out that I have another blade attributed to Jo Saku smith. Two of mine in very good original polish condition with out rust ans still received ony 73 points. Maybe the Shinsa panel might have some kickback for some members for setting the show.... :lol:

[ironchef.]

Yesterday, I found out that I have another blade attributed to Jo Saku smith. Two of mine in very good original polish condition with out rust ans still received ony 73 points. Maybe the Shinsa panel might have some kickback for some members for setting the show.... :lol:

 

My blade is out of polish with a small bit of the kissaki chipped off and I got 75 points

[Bungo]

I took my 15 months boy to Shinsa....He was enjoying and ready do Kantei for all the swords.....Pinked.....and more pinked papers.....his favorite colors. ...

 

feed him more red meat............. he likes pink ? that's not good.

 

 

p.s. I wasn't at the shinsa............ I just called Big Mo telling him his client needs to know the shinsa result and it's not nice to keep money paying clients to wait.

 

 

Milt THE ronin

[QuangD]

 

feed him more red meat............. he likes pink ? that's not good.

 

 

p.s. I wasn't at the shinsa............ I just called Big Mo telling him his client needs to know the shinsa result and it's not nice to keep money paying clients to wait.

 

 

Milt THE ronin

 

Milt,

 

 

Pink paper is more attractive then a damn white papers..since there are so many pinks papers in the Shinsa room. Paper ball....

 

There is a Chicago Shinsa next year. I need your help after you have one and one smoke with Gordon's boss. I can submit my gimei for paper...After that I treat you with beer and liquor (Cognac)....to celebrate... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Bungo]

After that I treat you with beer and liquor (Cognac)....to celebrate...

 

 

I only drink German beer and XO Cognac...................

hell, i'll drink anything as long as it's on you........... hahahahaaaa

 

sure, looking forward to the Chicago shinsa show and I have quite a few items I need to " influence " the judges prior to submission.

 

milt THE ronin

[fan]

so this group from nthk travels to the us to do shinsa every year? or every other year?

eric

[David Flynn]

I believe there are two seperate groups now called NTHK and both claim they are the main body

David

[fan]

right. but does their papers look the same? i think i had some swords submitted to chicago shinsa in 2004 assuming they are the same guys who came to nj in 2002 and 2006.

eric

[Bungo]

right. but does their papers look the same? i think i had some swords submitted to chicago shinsa in 2004 assuming they are the same guys who came to nj in 2002 and 2006.

eric

 

one is the Yoshikawa group, that's the one in Jersey and they are planning on a Chicago shinsa in late April 2007.

The other with similar name is the NTHK ( NPO ) .

 

There was a " dispute " that happened a few years back ( which I don't want to get into detail ) that resulted in the two groups .

 

The shinsa origami ( assuming you didn't get pinkied , ) looks different.

 

Milt THE ronin

[David Flynn]

which group would be considered the better? Or do they both have the same status

David