Soten Daisho Tsuba - out of the woodwork

[omidaijo]

Hi All,

 

Not being a fittings guy - would anyone like to comment on the attached Daisho Soten Tsuba before I take them to Japan for papers or conversely, trash them! Gimei/Soshin etc ?

 

Signature is Nyudo Soten, So Hei Shi.

 

I just picked them up (not cheap) in BC Canada .... the dealer who had just acquired them said they were straight out of an Old Scottish Estate so haven't done the usual rounds yet. Incidentally, I saw a Dragon Jizai in this town 18 years ago, and went back to check if I could find the 'house' again. After 2 days on Google Earth flying around at 5 ft getting nowhere, decided to do it the hard way and visit every antique shop in town. Lo and behold - someone recognized the man/house I was looking for, and I found the house! Dragon (baby female with gold eyes) is still there with my name all over it, but the lady owner wouldn't part with it despite some high end offers by me, so I walked away with the Tsuba instead....

 

Thoughts guys (other than rubbish photography), and please don't pull any punches .... the metal ground is shakudo

 

Kind rgds,

 

Roger

[Marius]

Based on the composition and style - very late Soten style tsuba.

[Brian]

Roger,

Chasing after an item 18 years later? Now THAT'S dedication

I hope it comes your way. Having seen some of your Jizai..I know it probably belongs there.

As for the tsuba...with so many views and no other replies, all I can surmise is that most feel it is not quite there? Ludolf or the others that have good mei resources?

As for me..I think it is veyr nice, but the fine detail is just not quite there. But who knows..have been wrong many times before. This forum has lots of shoshin mei examples if you search.

 

Brian

[Marius]

I have dug out a picture of a good quality Soten (don't know if this is the real McCoy, though). Jacques has posted it here ages ago.

[Surfson]

To me they look quite nice. They appear to have been mounted as well. If the mei itself is promising, and if you need to know, sending them to Japan is fine. For me, the cost of papering fittings rarely justifies the gain in value if it papers, and I'm happy to let beauty speak for itself.

[Alan Morton]

Hi Roger,

Why don't you treat us to some pics of the Dragon Jizai or bring

them to Sydney Shinza when you come back.

The chemist shop you liked so much is still there and have

stocked up supplies of Red in anticipation

 

Alan.

[John A Stuart]

The problem with these hikonebori tsuba signed Soten is that there are a few generations with students that signed Soten and numerous copyists. Now I am not competent to give a real appraisal, but, my opinion is that this is a late period, 19th century copy of hikonebori signed Soten. This is because when the signature is compared to shoshin examples in the Kinko Meikan there is enough discrepancy to cast doubt. It is a nice set though and has value in it's own right. My advice though is have someone in Japan have a look when you are next there. I am not confident in the sotenqyu tsuba pic either. John

[omidaijo]

Thanks for the replies: I am not sure but have this late copy feeling about them.

I will take them to Tokyo next month and get back to everyone.

 

 

 

Jizai - you mean these? :D

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The one I saw was female, and much smaller. In a copper so dark it looks like iron.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello Roger,

 

especially like the shrimp, thanks for posting.

[John A Stuart]

That would be a lobster, Franco. I have always found the description of lobster funny in Chinese. Shrimp is 虾 Ha while lobster is 龙虾 Lung ha, dragon shrimp !!!! Of course something similar in Japanese for the spiny lobster 竜蝦 iseebi, whereas the good eating kind is not distinguished from shrimp as being just ebi. I always was intriqued by those jizai. John

[Brian]

For those that don't know Roger..he is quite an advanced collector, as well as Hizen expert and author.

Not to toot your horn Rog...but a background helps those who might think you stumble into these tsuba at a garage sale :lol:

Roger is also one of the few ppl who will thrust a multi-thousand dollar jizai into your hands and let you have a good play with it. :lol:

They are simply amazing in hand...feel alive. The craftsmanship is mind-blowing.

 

Brian

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen

I am not really a tosugu man and so apologise if the following is considered an unnecessary or naive post as I am sure there is nothing new here but hopefully it will enhance my "anti-snob" credentials!

 

Maybe, like Roger, its the Hizen "thing" but I quite like Soten tsuba myself and have 5 examples. These cost me from £25 to the most expensive (and recent buy), at £300 last year and I believe admirably demonstrate my lack of sophistication in this area (of which I am quite proud). Those already posted by Roger look good to me and I think that there can hardly be fakes of Hikonibori or Machibori, by definition. Machibori is only artisans copying other work is it not, and they should be accepted as such shouldn't they?

 

I know that some Soten, unlike most which show Chinese figures or Gempei War scenes, are in shakudo-nanako rather than iron, and to my eye they resemble Mino-Goto workmanship - I would be grateful if anyone could explain this different style and what may be inferred from it?

 

Saying that, I do know of a famous Soten tsuba by the first master I believe, which is absolutely fabulous and was even well known and illustrated in the Edo period. Unfortunately, theses "8 Views of Omi Province" are in a private collection in Japan and unbuyable.

 

Actually, I am surprised that my friend Roger does not collect the 100 Horses or 100 Monkey tsuba by Mitsuhiro!

Regards

Clive Sinclaire

[kusunokimasahige]

A question on the tsuba Marius posted.

 

Was the Taira vs Heike Tsuba theme widely used in Tsuba making ? Or became it less popular during the ages?

 

I have seen some Gunkimono themed tsuba, but it seems they are not as abundant one might expect.

 

KM

[John A Stuart]

Well, Clive, you've opened a dialogue filled with controversy. When is a copy a legitimate work and when does it enter the realm of fakery? My opinion is when good design, art and craftmanship are done to emulate and /or honour previous artwork. This includes direct replication to works done in the style of other works. This being seperate from work done by schools that had a rigid formulae for subsequent generations and innovation was subtle if at all. Fakery, of course being work done to deceive a customer for commercial gain. The boundaries can be quite nebulous, swords and fittings being made with false signatures that are works of art in themselves and display desirable craft only later known to be copies with a faked signature. The hikonebori such as Roger has meets the first criteria. Work done in a style that emulates superior craft with a signature that identifies and honours the original masters, but, is not meant to deceive for monetary gain alone. John