Magnus Sweden Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 Hi everyone, I would like your assistance in translating the Mei on an Army Shin Gunto. I have read through the book "Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945 by Fuller & Gregory" carefully and all details match a type 94 or early type 98 factory made Army Shin Gunto, but I can't single out the production factory/smith as I couldn't find any traditional factory stamps (perhaps just to faint and I've missed it) but only the Mei on the photo. The sword was bought at a vintage arms fair in the UK some 20 years ago and has a beautiful patina on the Tsuka, Tsuba and other fittings, but a quite neglected blade. I have scanned a few sources attempting to translate the Mei myself, but I found it quite difficult. I think I can se the number "9", the word for "month", "Tani", "Ro" and perhaps the month of "may", but as I understand individual signs can have different meaning depending on the combination so I could be totaly of track.... -Any help would be highly appreciated. Many thanks in advance! /Best regards Magnus in Sweden Quote
chrisf Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 I hope someone will prove me wrong but this looks like Chinese copy with a random range of 'Japanese' characters. The way that the patina on the nakago stretches up to the machi I would also consider a bit suspect. Quote
chrisf Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 Missed it first time but also look at the distance between the hamachi and munemachi. Have only ever seen that on repro swords. Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 The mei is engraved and not chiseled. Patina looks off. Please post photos of the kissaki (tip) and blade. Highly likely a fake. KM Quote
Stephen Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 think i see enough chippy chisel marks to say its not ingraved Quote
Grey Doffin Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 But look at the machi. The mune machi is an inch higher up the nakago than the ha machi. I think fake. Grey Quote
Brian Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 Not sure what to think here. If it was a fake, someone knows Japanese swords and took pains to use real kanji, get the shape of the nakago right, and also the nakago jiri. So why make such a mistake as having the machi so off? I think that would have been too far off for a faker. The nakago looks dry and missing yasurime. Maybe messed with, repatinated and signed gimei? Maybe burned...maybe a fake. Anything here is speculation until we see the rest of the sword and maybe the habaki that fits those machi. Brian Quote
chrisf Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 Not difficult for a Chinese faker Brian,Chinese and Japanese have shared kanji characters and not matching the machi is a detail that you would miss if you just looked at a picture of a sword. I also remember sitting for hours trying to translate a similar 'signature' on an ebay sword 10 years ago and it was a Chinese copy. Quote
Brian Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 Chris, Yeah..not saying it isn't a fake. However they usually don't take care with the nakago shape, and especially the jiri. It could be a fake..many of them have good nakago..however they don't usually make such a slip. They would not have gotten the rest right without considerable examination of real swords. Anyways..could go either way. The point is you can't tell just yet. Brian Quote
Magnus Sweden Posted March 22, 2011 Author Report Posted March 22, 2011 Hi again, Wow, this was quick response. Many thanks. Regardless of what is the final verdict I'm grateful for your help. Regarding the Mei being engraved or chiseled I have to blame my bad photo If is without doubt chiseled. Clean and deep marks. I was also a bit puzzled by the style of the Mei, but the fittings were tight and everything else seemed ok. I have attached a few more photos. Unfortunately I don't think the blade will tel much as it's heavily covered in black rust. I can take some better photos tomorrow in the daylight if required. Right now it late night in Sweden. -I hope this will help the investigation further Quote
Grey Doffin Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 Now I can see 2 ha machi and 2 mune machi, none of which line up with another. Strange. Grey Quote
Daniel Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 I think this is the same sword discussed in the thread Help needed to identify a possible fake. Both threads started by members from Sweden. As I said in that thread avoid it's a fake Regards Daniel Quote
Bruno Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 I beleive these artificially aged swords come from the same chinese seller, he used to sell many of them. Please have a look at this one, many common with the one discussed here points to me. http://cgi.ebay.com/Real-Japanese-Milit ... 3f07d9fe67 Quote
Magnus Sweden Posted March 22, 2011 Author Report Posted March 22, 2011 I think this is the same sword discussed in the thread Help needed to identify a possible fake. Both threads started by members from Sweden. As I said in that thread avoid it's a fake Regards Daniel It's not.... Believe it or not we are a few people living in sweden.... But the timing was a lucky coincident, I have to admit that And I would be a bit surprised if we would reach consensus that it's a fake. I got it from a man I trust and I have no reason to suspect any foul play from his side around the story of it's origin. But perhaps fairly well made fakes were common also 20-30 years ago and we were both deceived. How I'm even more confused... Quote
Stephen Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 ill toss my hat into the chinese copy ring Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 Character 1: Koku or Tani (valley) Character 2: Kou, Kangaeru (think, consider) Character 3: Dai, Tai, Ou (large, Big) Character 4: Rou (man, husband) Character 5: Dou, Tou, Tsuchi (Earth, soil, ground) Character 6: Hi, Koe, Ko(yashi) Manure, dung, night soil So: In the Valley I was thinking of big a man who took a dump on the ground. Or, who fertilised the ground with dung. (i used my old Kanji and Kana for this xD ) So yes... i still think its fake.... KM Quote
moss Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 Hi Magnus, Seppa and Dai Seppa look poorly made,even gunto fittings were generally given a bit more pride of manufacture. And also all brass???? A combination of brass seppa ,copper dai seppa or maybe a steel with brown paint variant but all brass. Can't say I have ever seen that,of course I expect there is exceptions to the rule. The tsuka wrap even though blurry look wrong,so the chances of a genuine blade Cheers Moss Quote
Magnus Sweden Posted March 23, 2011 Author Report Posted March 23, 2011 :lol: The translation sure gave me a good laugh! This, and the rest of the comments received lead me to conclude that the verdict is out. It's a Chinese rip-of! Darn clever guys these Chinese, they sure fooled me with the patination. I thought I could spot real wear and patination from earlier experience of WW2 rifles, but I still have things to learn... Well, well. Win some lose some. At lest I got a bit further educated in the subject! Many thanks again everyone for your assistance! -This sword will now go into the waste bin. Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 Sent you a PM, dont bin it yet... for re-enactment use. KM Quote
Magnus Sweden Posted March 23, 2011 Author Report Posted March 23, 2011 Some new development that could be of interest.... By advice from fellow forum members I performed a hand polish on a small section of the blade before tossing it away and the findings surprised me a bit. After some hours of carefull work with a fine stone a Hamon has now become visible. Quite faint, but still visible. Its an almost straight cloudy white Hamon about 3-4mm wide along the edge. I tried to snap a photo but it didn't show very well. I will give it another try later. This new finding made me wonder why someone first spent the effort quenching the blade, and then deliberately ruining the blade by getting it to rust (fairly deep, it took quite some polish to remove) to make it all invisible... :? Strange...... Quote
BenoitD Posted March 30, 2011 Report Posted March 30, 2011 Everything is in the details. The tsuba is definitively a reproduction. We need very good quality pictures of the kabuto-gane, menuki, fushi-gane, kuchi-gane , ashi ... Benoit D Quote
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