Marius Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Dear All, this is clearly beyond my modest abilities... This tag was attached to a kabuto. I suppose it is a dealer's inventory tag, but I would be grateful for your help. Thank you for your time Quote
k morita Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Hi, I beliebe it isn't a dealer's inventory tag. It is surely a tag in late Edo period or most early Meiji period. However, I do not know whether it is originally tag attached to a "kabuto". Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Marius, could you post a photo of the Kabuto ? Very interested in seeing it ! KM Quote
Marius Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Posted March 21, 2011 Marius, could you post a photo of the Kabuto ? Very interested in seeing it ! The only pic I have got at the moment.... Doesn't disclose much, does it. Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Edited. Would still like to see more photos though ! KM Quote
Justin Grant Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 That is odd. I'd wait for Ian or maybe Eric to comment on it. My limited understanding tells me the side attachments are a later addition. But, like most things, I am more than likely incorrect. I love the Zunari kabutos.. Quote
IanB Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Mariusz, Several things strike me at first glance. The bowl is a nice zunari bachi with eyebrows on the mabezashi - maybe embossed or possibly done in lacquer. The maedate might be of the Kondo family, but I have an armour made for a Nakagawa Mochinori of Nagato with the same antler kamon. Sorry but I don't like the wakidate fittings. They might have been done a long time, but I've never seen any like this. The usual way is to cut a slot through the side of the bowl with the tsunomono, which has a flange on the inner end, pushed through from inside and rivetted. That way the wakidate can fit flush against the bowl. I'm also sorry to say the shikoro doesn't seem to fit the bowl. It sticks out at the back instead of fitting close to the koshimaki. It also wasn't laced by a Japanese armour maker. All of the cross-knots should cross the same way. This has been done by starting a lace at the lowest plate, working up to the bowl and back down again with the result that the X-knots alternate. The proper way is to start with two ends at the koshimaki and add the plates one at a time working down and doing all the X-knots the same way. I do hope I'm wrong but ..... Ian Bottomley Quote
Justin Grant Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Ian I am always impressed by your knowledge and willingness to educate. Thank you. Justin Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 Same here, i did not see what you saw, the lacing did not cross my mind... Humbled here. Any good Western books on Armour and Lacing ? KM Quote
Justin Grant Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 Toraba (Trevor) has a new book out. Ian's series of books are great. Then the books in Japanese. Takes times to read them but that is part of the fun. Quote
estcrh Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 While I have learned that saying "never" when it comes to Japanese armor can prove wrong on many occasions, when it comes to flashy attachments you have to take a really close look as to how well the work was done and how recently. I have read (and seen) about plain zunari kabuto which have been decked out with embellishments in recent years (and even late Edo period) to make them more exciting (marketable). As Ian mentioned the neck guard "shikoro" does not appear to fit the kabuto properly, while it is not unusual for a shikoro to have been replaced, many kabuto (and armor in general) have had various parts replaced over the life of the item, how well the repair was done makes a big difference as the a period repair on anything other then a low grade item should be of the same quality as the item. The lace is not a quality job, and as far as the side crest "wakidate", I have not seen them attached in this manner but I am not an expert and can not say if they were "never" added in this way. With out more pictures of the brow or visor ''mabizashi'' its hard to tell if this is original or a period quality addition or a later modern one. Discrepancies between the lacquer ''urushi'' on the various parts can be a sign of restoration etc. Here is a etchu zunari kabuto with wakidate flanges that I believe are original to the kabuto. The shikoro lace needs to be restored but I believe the lace is original or at least very old and you can see how it should look, you can see how the shikoro fits the contours of the helmet bowl ''hachi''. http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/zz23 ... ?start=all Quote
Marius Posted March 22, 2011 Author Report Posted March 22, 2011 OK, attached is another pic of the kabuto. Quote
estcrh Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 Cant tell much from that far away, the brow may be original or at least old as the lacquer does not look new, but the ''fukigaeshi'' are strange, is that leather pieces attached to them? Are the wakidate attached or can they be removed? Quote
Marius Posted March 22, 2011 Author Report Posted March 22, 2011 but the ''fukigaeshi'' are strange, is that leather pieces attached to them? Are the wakidate attached or can they be removed? Eric, many thanks for your help Since I am posting this on behalf of a friend, I have to relay your questions to him. I will be back with answers soon. An many, many thanks to Ian for his valuable input. Thank you so much Ian Quote
IanB Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 All, I'm sure the mabezashi and its eyebrows is absolutely correct and original. I don't think the maedate is the original to the helmet (but how many are?) since the tsunamono is too tall and stands above it. Without a closer look at details I cannot tell whether the maedate is a genuine one or not - but it looks to have a good chance. The fukigayeshi look OK, the jabara piping looks fine but kamon are rather strange. I look forward to seeing some close-ups. Still a nice hineno bowl whatever. Ian Bottomley Quote
Marius Posted March 23, 2011 Author Report Posted March 23, 2011 OK, here is what I have got from my friend: "The original urusi was dark brown, and the brows are in this colour. Fukigaeshi are covered with leather and fringed with a cord. The ka-mon of three hats (?) are engraved. Wakidate can be removed. They are made of thin plate, look like they have never been restored." I'll try to get some close ups from him.... Thanks again :-) Quote
IanB Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 If the kamon is of three hats I am encouraged. A faker would not make a kamon of that design but would choose something simple like bars across a circle or something similar. That being the case, the shikoro is probably a real one, but whether it came from this helmet we must wait and see. It could be just badly fitted. I can believe the wakidate might be real as well. It is just the fittings for them I find odd. Ian bottomley Quote
Marius Posted March 23, 2011 Author Report Posted March 23, 2011 Gosh, my friend is producing these pics rather slowly I will post them as they come. Apologies Here is one of one of the wakidate. I know nothing about Japanese armour (I need to buy Ian's book first) but this looks too clumsy for any kind of Japanese work.. Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted March 23, 2011 Report Posted March 23, 2011 Agree fully with you, the riveting is crude and not finished. Could your friend post images of the way the roundels are attached to the Zunari shell ? Maybe also an inside photo ? It is an interesting helmet, even though the consensus is that it may be a marriage. I think these horns would be attached the way as is shown in Erics post. KM Quote
Marius Posted March 24, 2011 Author Report Posted March 24, 2011 and... another picture. It is like pulling teeth :lol: Quote
IanB Posted March 24, 2011 Report Posted March 24, 2011 Mariusz, As expected, these fittings are new. No armourer would leave the end of the fitting cut off square with sharp corners. Also, these fittings generally have the end bent back to form a spring to grip the wakidate. They are also too wide. Most are little more than 1/4" - 3/8". You wonder why the person who did this didn't look at an original and take another couple of minutes just to file off the corners. Ian Quote
Marius Posted March 24, 2011 Author Report Posted March 24, 2011 Ian and All, your kind help is very appreciated. I cannot stop being amazed how such knowledgeable people are willing to share knowledge they have gained over many years with newbies. This post has another positive aspect - while I am a tsuba enthusiast with interest for nihonto and its historic fittings, I have never really gained any knowledge about katchu. This will now change :-) Many many thanks, also on behalf of my friend. Quote
estcrh Posted March 24, 2011 Report Posted March 24, 2011 Of course "new" is a relative term, that work could be many decades old. The only time I would expect to see shoddy work on Japanese armor is in low end, very late Edo period armor of the kind that was actually used during the turbulent period of the mid to late 1800s., Wakidate would not be in that category I do not think, they are more for looks and do not serve an actual purpose. A picture of the interior would be nice, does it have a liner ''ukebari''. Quote
IanB Posted March 24, 2011 Report Posted March 24, 2011 Mariusz, This is becoming a wonderful detective game. This shot confirms that the lacing was done by an amateur. The lining looks perfectly real, but the fabric around it isn't what would be usually used. Generally it would have a leather edging. I also note that the kamon on the fukigayeshi, whilst they look as if they are real, started life on something else. They just don't fit the curve and have come from something much flatter. Keep them coming. Ian Bottomley Quote
Marius Posted March 26, 2011 Author Report Posted March 26, 2011 OK, here are two more, plus the mon of the Isawa family... Quote
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