gtstcactus Posted March 20, 2011 Report Posted March 20, 2011 Hi People, I've just picked up my mumei wakizashi in shirasaya that I posted some mediocre pics of a while ago. I have done my best with my very average camera to provide better pictures. Please don't shoot me if they aren't good enough! It was last polished in Japan, which is where the shirasaya was made also. From what I can tell / see it has a long notare hamon. I'm struggling to see hada with it in hand (or I don't know what I'm looking at), but I thought it could be muji. I don't think it is masame-hada. There are 2 mekugiana with the possible remains of a third on the very end of the nakago. One of the mekugiana appears to be lined with copper or something similar. The mune is iorimune. The curvature is rather shallow. I think the boshi looks like notarekomi. It is quite possibly suriage or o-suriage. Retempering was suggested by a couple of folk on here, but another couple said not so.... I can't make out any yasurime on the tang, could this be due to age? It has a 523mm nagasa, overall length 669mm. It has a 2 piece copper habaki. Could anyone put a likely time period on when it may have been made. Also could anyone indicate an area or possibe school it may have come from? Is it common for the hamon to go so high in the blade I see in 1 or 2 places it meets the shinogi line....
gtstcactus Posted March 20, 2011 Author Report Posted March 20, 2011 More pics... Is it normal for the mekugiana holes to be lined with copper or other metals?
moss Posted March 20, 2011 Report Posted March 20, 2011 Hello Jason , Overall the photos are O.K. Hard to get good shots,did you try Jeans trick with an LCD torch?It will help. Forget the closeups the old happy snapper can't cope with them,unless you try macro.?????? I'm worse at pics than you so don't panic. Are you pleased with this blade? Moss
gtstcactus Posted March 20, 2011 Author Report Posted March 20, 2011 Hi Moss, I took some of Jeans advice, like using a sheet as the background and changed the lights a bit. I'm actually going to go out and see if I can get an LCD torch for photos as It will be useful in the long run. I set the camera to the shooting items closer than 70cm for some shots. I might try get a halogen lamp as well. I am very pleased with this blade..... It is a huge upgrade from 1st purchase of a "satsuma rebellion" wakizashi. This one is in what I think seems to be a reasonable polish, the shirasaya is really nice. I love the notare hamon. I'd just like to try and learn more about the piece... Hopefully some kind members can make something of it!
Marius Posted March 20, 2011 Report Posted March 20, 2011 OK, based on your pics only... I might be wrong, so take this with a grain of salt: 1. Tang looks like it was burnt at some time, do I see fire-scale here? 2. Yakiba is unusually broad 3. Hamon slides down before thehamachi, and the notare is somewhat unusual Conclusion: this might be a retempered blade (saiha)
Jacques Posted March 20, 2011 Report Posted March 20, 2011 Hi, It seems the nakago has been filed down to create a new hamachi and i'm afraid man can't see a true hamon (hope being wrong)
Brian Posted March 20, 2011 Report Posted March 20, 2011 This looks to me to be one of those blades that is just not going to tell its secrets online, no matter what pics are presented. Too much that needs to be seen in hand, such as nie, nioi and any hataraki, as well as hada. I suggest you try and link up with a collector near you and let them have a look at it in hand and give an opinion. Obviously much better than your last blade, but no identifying features that would easily push it to one of the schools that I can determine. Are there any study groups or collectors near you? Brian
gtstcactus Posted March 20, 2011 Author Report Posted March 20, 2011 Sadly in New Zealand there aren't a heap of knowledgeable collectors, and I don't know of any study groups. We don't have a JSS. Someone suggested "cultivating a relationship with a chap called Phillip James" here in NZ. He is not in my city, I have dealt with him once. I purchased a replica pair of edo period tiger menuki. He currently has a katana listed on ebay for $29,000 selling on behalf. He also has a $1200-$1500 kokinko tsuba (papered) on ebay. I'm going to a militaria auction in mid-april. There is a small Japanese section of interest to me, I might be able to meet some fellow collectors there but most go for the guns etc.
gtstcactus Posted March 20, 2011 Author Report Posted March 20, 2011 I don't think the tang has been burnt. As for the hamon sliding down before the hamachi, I'm not so sure.... With it in hand in the right light it looks like it could go that extra inch maybe....
Brian Posted March 20, 2011 Report Posted March 20, 2011 Jason, I think you would battle to find a more out of the way place to study Nihonto than South Africa. Few servicemen went to the East in WW2, and no swords returned from there. Almost no swords tucked away in closets, and not near any countries with any of the above history. And yet...I have still found about 10 eager Nihonto enthusiasts who have collectively quite a few nice swords, and we have now even started to travel to Japan to study further. My point is, no matter how small your country is...there are collectors there and swords. You just have to find them. You also have the huge resource of Australia not too far away. Keep on trying, and you will find the info you are after. Brian
gtstcactus Posted March 20, 2011 Author Report Posted March 20, 2011 Is there anyone in Oceana (NZ / Aussie) a respected member here who I could perhaps send the blade to for inspection? It would be nice if it was good enough for Shinsa in Aussie but thats probably a dream! Most New Zealanders didn't fight the Japanese.... They were in africa and europe mainly. When the Japanese came through malaya etc the Aussies recalled their troops home to redeploy. I'm sure some kiwis met the Japanese in battle but the numbers were on the smaller side. Many New Zealanders were part of J force and the occupation that followed but a lot of the nice swords had already been souvinered! I'm not saying the swords and collectors aren't here just not so easy to find.
raven2 Posted March 20, 2011 Report Posted March 20, 2011 As for the hamon sliding down before the hamachi, I'm not so sure.... With it in hand in the right light it looks like it could go that extra inch maybe.... Hi Jason, I think the hamon is unusually broad, but I have a katana with a hamon almost as wide. However, I am also of the opinion that the hamon ends a good deal befor the hamachi. I think it would be very unlikely for such a wide hamon to suddenly drop down and finish so narrowly.
David Flynn Posted March 20, 2011 Report Posted March 20, 2011 Jason, why not send it to James Jordan in NZ? I'm sure he would give you the right answer. Sorry I don't know his address, but I doubt he would be too hard to find.
Lee Bray Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 It was last polished in Japan, which is where the shirasaya was made also. Are you saying you just had it polished? If that's the case, surely the polisher in Japan is in a much better position to answer your questions?
Marius Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 I don't think the tang has been burnt. Have a look at the patina. There are several tell-tale signs... Is it "dry"? What is the colour? Does the tang smell in any way? Are there any pittings? Other signs would include mizukage, but this is not always proof of re-tempering... The best thing would be to ask the polisher, anyway :-)
christianmalterre Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Dear Jason, Looks like an Suri-Age Osaka school blade here.(In fact could be if i could see some bit more of the structure-Kissaki and Boshi but do lead me to this) Hamon looks O.K. for an most probably converted to-Wak. The polish is but not very good here-Not? You did mention it was polished in Japan-i do hardly doubt that(but of course you should know better)-those polishers i do know would never give an blade in that status away to the proprietor. So here but-i do have to wonder.... Equally i do agree with Mariusz comment concerning the Tang here... Christian
gtstcactus Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Posted March 21, 2011 Are you saying you just had it polished? If that's the case, surely the polisher in Japan is in a much better position to answer your questions? No, the previous owner purchased it from Japan, where it was last polished. I have not had it polished.
gtstcactus Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Posted March 21, 2011 Have a look at the patina. There are several tell-tale signs... Is it "dry"? What is the colour? Does the tang smell in any way? Are there any pittings? Other signs would include mizukage, but this is not always proof of re-tempering... The best thing would be to ask the polisher, anyway :-) I'm not sure what you mean by dry..... Of course it is dry, it's not dried out like flakey dry if thats what you mean. It doesn't feel "dried out" like I would expect something too that had been burnt. The color is a darkish grey over metal...... It was suggested to me the tang looks the way it does due to age....???? The tang smells like metal. There is perhaps minor pitting, I'm not 100% on that. I can not detect mizukage..... regards Jas
gtstcactus Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Posted March 21, 2011 Dear Jason,Looks like an Suri-Age Osaka school blade here.(In fact could be if i could see some bit more of the structure-Kissaki and Boshi but do lead me to this) Hamon looks O.K. for an most probably converted to-Wak. The polish is but not very good here-Not? You did mention it was polished in Japan-i do hardly doubt that(but of course you should know better)-those polishers i do know would never give an blade in that status away to the proprietor. So here but-i do have to wonder.... Equally i do agree with Mariusz comment concerning the Tang here... Christian Christian, Thanks for your reply. I don't know when it was last polished..... Just that it was done in Japan, for all I know it may have been polished 25 years ago... Did you have any particular Osaka school in mind as a possibility? Are you saying better pictures of the kissaki and boshi would help you give comment on it? I can try again for better pics. I have to say this wakizashi has a great feel to it..... Actually feels like it was made this way, either that or in shortening it they've done a great job. It feels nice and solid, yet still agile enough to use effectively.
Marius Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 I'm not sure what you mean by dry..... Of course it is dry, it's not dried out like flakey dry if thats what you mean. It doesn't feel "dried out" like I would expect something too that had been burnt. The color is a darkish grey over metal...... It was suggested to me the tang looks the way it does due to age....???? The tang smells like metal OK, it is hard to describe, but you might want to compare old patina with "new patina", be it on a nakago or tsuba. True patina is like porn, tough to define, but you recognise it when you see it. Try to compare your sword's nakago with that of a good sword. Spot the difference. You need to see some good swords, with good nakago. Good nakago has yasurime, even if it is quite old. Yours does not and there is a reason for this... BTW, the nakago should not smell at all. Another hint: think how much you have paid for it. I dare say it was not exactly expensive. Think of the possible reasons why: 1. The sword is pretty average 2. The sword is saiha 3. The nakago has been repatinated for whatever reason 4. The sword is tired 5. The sword is otherwise flawed Just trying to tell you that buying nihonto is not that easy. One of my first swords had a hagire, thank goodness I have managed to spot it and return the sword. Another one I gave stupidly to a "polisher" who ruined it by polishing it down and who produced a fake hamon. It still hurts, but I had no NMB back then.
gtstcactus Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Posted March 21, 2011 The Nakago hardly does smell at all, just the faint hint of metal/iron. I paid $1200 New Zealand dollars for it. I also read an email from a polisher in the US to the seller, he wrote that the nakago showed "quite some age" whatever that means. I'm by no means think that buying nihonto is easy! I hear you loud and clear and have done since I joined the board. I appreciate your thoughts, I hope to get it to James Jordan (if I can contact him or find out how to) for a hands on opinion. I plan on attending a militaria auction in a months time, if nothing else just so I can examine the small number of nihonto on offer... There are not a lot of swords I can get my hands on to view in NZ. I know that there are swords out there I'm just yet to meet some people who can show me some "good swords" The tang on this sword at http://www.nihontocraft.com/Hirazukuri_Koto_Katana.htm shows no yasurime that I can see, granted mine is slightly darker in color. Either way, this is a vast improvement on my "satsuma rebellion" sword.
Marius Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Jason, what is most important is your approach :-) I guess nobody can follow the sound advice not to buy anything before having gained some knowledge. I would refrain from further purchases until you have seen much more and learned much more. One day, you'll look at this sword and say: "*****************" and you might still like it, because it was one of the early purchases. A sounder approach would be, however, selling that one above your purchase cost and saving for a good sword. Now, a good sword does not have to expensive, though it does not come cheap. Look at this one (one of many): http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/sword16.html It is o-suriage, hence cheap. Still, a solid koto. One of many.
christianmalterre Posted March 21, 2011 Report Posted March 21, 2011 Dear Jason, well-if that polish is 25 years old as you did write me,there should at least ben visible some kind of metallurgical characteristics-i even can´t see an hada here(to be honest)-so yes of course,if this is possible-please do try to get some better pictures of the blade... Best would be pictures taken in higher resolution and under direct Sunlight and additionally under an "cold light"(like Halogen ect),too... The Osaka diriction was mine very first choice here(Curvature,Shape of cunstruction,Boshi,Hamon) So to answer on your´s question in addition of course-please do try to get the Afu Shinto and Shinshinto volumes(if you do not have them already)-some of the depicted blades do show similarities to the your´s here... )(not directly-but all of them had Osaka as ideal or do come directly from that direction and/or influence) Those books are not very expensive-also not specific in one single direction of school-but well written,with good and workable photos;and they do give you an first oversight on the serious study of blades... (There but,may be collectors here in the forum-who certainly do have much deeper and pronounced knowledge in Kantei-mine "Sword passion" is a while ago now...) I would be equally interested what they say here.... Mine guess is actually-this is an Shinshinto O-Suriage....but i can definitely be wrong of course! LoL! Either way-i think this may help you in research...and...(do not thrust everybody offering you a blade-LOL!) Christian
gtstcactus Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Posted March 21, 2011 Christian, I really have no idea when it was polished that was just for example...... It could have been 50 years! I really have no idea. Perhaps it needs a better polish to bring out it's characteristics. I've just been trying every different angle of light I can to view the blade, I believe I can see vague hints of itame hada. I won't be able to photo them tho my camera isn't up to the task...
kusunokimasahige Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 Jason, I am sorry to butt in like this, but will you please stop quoting posts which are obvious to all readers because they are above your last post ? In general, you quote a post you read when the thread is a few pages further. Just a friendly advice. For the rest i would like to add that the advice you are getting from most of the senior members is sound. I like your eagerness to find swords, but it seems to me you are still throwing your money away on lower end stuff. The Hamon i see on your wakizashi does not at all bring out the inner beauty of the sword. On the Nakago, i am inclined to agree with retempering, but unless you can take some MACRO pictures with a good digital camera, it is difficult to make out. Best wishes, KM
gtstcactus Posted March 22, 2011 Author Report Posted March 22, 2011 kusunokimasahige, I'm terribly sorry about the quotes, it was very inconsiderate of me. I will in future try to make my posts more acceptable to the other members. My apologies to everyone! You say the hamon doesn't bring out the beauty of the sword.... Is this something that could be improved with polishing or are you saying the hamon is just plain crap.... My camera shots really aren't doing the sword justice!
kusunokimasahige Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 Thnx ! Oh by the way, if i am correct you have a setting on most cameras which deletes the flash. Often a digital camera has a macro setting. If you take a good lamp and illuminate the nakago well, you should be able to make macro photos at least as nice as some of the last photos you posted. Also, the tip on taking some photos in natural outside light as well as interior light might help. KM
sanjuro Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 That the hamon doesnt bring out the natural beauty of the sword has been established. What intrigues me is why you might want to spend a further couple of grand to polish a sword that you paid only $1200 for?????????? It isnt a lost national treasure and it aint never gonna make Juyo, so why go there? What I'm getting at here is: (1) Assuming its a blade worth the trouble (and that is far from being certain). Can it stand another polish? Regardless of your own opinion of the blade, an opinion based on gut feeling rather than fact, this is by other collectors standards a relatively average sort of a blade, for which you paid a relatively average sort of a price. The hamon looks unnatural which raises questions concerning the polish it received. It is a shortened probably retempered blade of indeterminate provenance and questionable quality. (Just telling it like it is) (2) For the price of a polish the blade would not appreciate in value to the same degree, so why throw more cash at something when you could sell it, add the price you were going to spend on a polish, and buy an infinitely better sword ? All of this has nothing to do with making a profit, or somehow conjuring an art sword out of an average at best wakizashi. It has to do with plain old common sense.
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