KANEMOTO?

[IchiNi]

Hi all,

 

i'd like to thank you very much for your help. you saved me some cash))). although, i do like the blade, i agree it's not worth the price. and dodgy origamis should be a warning sign from the very beginning too)))

 

Vlad

[Guido]

  george trotter said:

Please...this is embarrassing.

I totally agree - but not for the reason you so delicately put into words, quite to the contrary!

[george trotter]

Hi Guido,

Sorry, judging from your comment I must have confused you?

I am talking about the incident where a member posted clear pics of a sword and its origami. A knowledgeable member asked for the identity of the origami writer before venturing to comment on its attribution of the sword. Only when he had the name of the author did he make a comment. Such behavior gives an impression that (for him) the signature on the origami is what makes an attribution "true" or "false", not the characteristics of the sword that make the origami attribution "true" or false". Do you see what I mean?

The reason for my comment is clear enough really, I would be interested to know what you think.

Regards,

George.

[Jean]

I think Reinhard was more interested by the origami than by the sword, if I can spot a kodai Kanemoto, with my small experience, Reinhard who undoubtedly has held and study in hand some Kanemoto (Magoroku) had absolutelly no doubt about the blade from the start

[reinhard]

  Jean said:

I think Reinhard was more interested by the origami than by the sword

 

Thanks Jean. That's about it.

 

There's not much we can learn from discussing swords like these in detail. What we can learn however: There are many serious looking papers out there, written in proper Japanese and with nice seals on them. Some of them count for nothing.

 

Some of you might wonder what makes me so sure this is not the work of Magoroku KANEMOTO.

It's a compilation of "wrong" features. Seeing a sword like this, I don't start my check-list with sanbonsugi-hamon. Sugata is the first thing to look at. As Jacques pointed out, a nagasa of 71+cm and o-suriage hardly go together with a work by Magoroku. There are some prolonged works however, but even those were made in uchigatana-style with pronounced saki-sori. Furthermore the hira-ji of all of Magoroku's blades display flat niku and a rather straight fukura. The blade in question is representing quite the opposite. I could add many more points, but this must do for the moment.

 

One more thing: You should not start appreciation or kantei with a one-track notion. In English Token Bijutsu magazine No.4 (p.22) is a comment about wrong nyusatsu on a Magoroku blade:

 

"This blade is a good example of the basic rule that in kantei the final decision should be based on the comprehensive evaluation of various factors giving priority to the most pertinent characteristics.

Additionally, this example as most of Kanemoto's works usually are, also happens to be a good specimen of the importance of actually holding the blade in the hands in identification. Kanemoto's works are so nicely proportioned in terms of balance among weigth, length and curvature that they fit perfectly and most comfortably into holder's hands."

 

reinhard

[Danocon]

Nice discussion guys-taught me a lot just following it.

 

So, we (meaning you) ascertained that this sword was not what the papers claimed. Did we come to a conclusion on what it actually is?

[Jean]

Possibly a kodai but also another Mino smith...

[george trotter]

  Jean said:

I think Reinhard was more interested by the origami than by the sword, if I can spot a kodai Kanemoto, with my small experience, Reinhard who undoubtedly has held and study in hand some Kanemoto (Magoroku) had absolutelly no doubt about the blade from the start

 

Hi Jean,

yes, for sure... isn't this my point? Why ask to see the signature?

It raises another question...what if the origami had been signed by a "name"? ...would it have made the subsequent comments different?

 

Thanks for your comments.

George.

[Jim P]

Hi, I think this is the same sword that was on sale about 12 months ago. I questioned the site that was selling it about the paper

I checked on the board and and found that it came from a shop. The seller at the time said not to worry to much about the paper

so I lost interest look at (http://www.bushiart.com/shop/default.as ... ame=Swords )

[IchiNi]

Hi Jim,

 

thanks for the info. shame i cant see their original price now isnt it weird there's no information about the site owner whatsoever... im wondering where they're actually based.

 

vlad

[Jean]

  Quote

what if the origami had been signed by a "name"? ...would it have made the subsequent comments different?

 

George,

 

We have a very good saying in French which says :

 

  Quote

With "ifs", one could put Paris in a bottle (not Hilton too easy, but the French city and not the Texas one:D )

 

This one would have been of the same length (more or less) given for Tenbun :

 

http://world.choshuya.co.jp/sale/gj/1009/4_kanemoto.htm

[Brian]

  IchiNi said:

Hi Jim,

 

thanks for the info. shame i cant see their original price now isnt it weird there's no information about the site owner whatsoever... im wondering where they're actually based.

 

vlad

Bushiart is run by Vitali in Japan. He is a member here, and I have always had good dealings with him. He also contributed one of the top prizes to the NMB prize draw (not that it influences my comments, but it goes towards character)

 

Brian

[IchiNi]

okay, i am based in moscow, russia. vitaly sounds like a russian name to me. and he was selling the blade as Kanemoto on his website accompanied by this dodgy origami.

another guy here is selling this blade for the price i mentioned earlier. im soooo curious what sort of price there originally was as im sick and tired of all those ppl trying to resell blades they bought for 5K for 15-20k locally. sorry if this is irrelevant :?

[reinhard]

  IchiNi said:

sorry if this is irrelevant :?

 

Don't apologize. It's not irrelevant and some clearences on NMB are overdue.

 

reinhard

[jasongarabedian]

Mr. reinhard and others,

 

I am not much into the collecting of art swords as such, I am a practitioner of batto-do. This thread caught my attention, as the Soke of my style (Nakamura Taizaburo) had experience with Magoroku Kanemoto blades. One thing he did mention is that the Magoroku kanemoto he used had a flat shinogi instead of raised shinogi. Now, I have read though that he made swords with high shinogi, but this goes against what Soke said. Is it possible Magoroku Kanemoto forged blades with both flat and raised shinogi?

Yours Sincerely,

Jason Garabedian

[IchiNi]

Thanks Reinhard! i really do appreciate your input here!

[John A Stuart]

Jason, Later period Minoto usually have a thin kasane and a high shinogi. John

[jasongarabedian]

John,

Thank you for replying. So, the Minoto forged during the Sengoku Jidai period had the thin kasane and high shinogi, and swords earlier than the sengoku Jidai period had the flatter shinogi?

Yours Sincerely,

Jason Garabedian

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

In fact about shinogi you can see both, high and low.

[John A Stuart]

I don't know why you say that Jacques. It isn't an equally found trait. Both Kanemoto II and Kanesada II were students of Kanesada of Akasaka, in fact it has been said that at one time Kanemoto II was a student of Kanesada II. The father of Kanesada II was a kaji of the Shizu Ha in Akasaka which came down from the Yamato Den Senjuin Ha smiths Kinju and Kaneuji with further training under Masamune, the Soshu influence. Other influences were evident, Yamashiro, Bizen, but, the main thing in the sugata of Mino swords is a predominately high shinogi, coming from a strong Yamato trend. This trait is not accounting for utsushi of other traditions.

 

Jason, It is found before as well. I was in this case refering to Magoroku Kanemoto swords as being in the later period. John