Proper habaki fit?

[Birdman]

Exactly what constitutes a properly fitting habaki? I ask, because on the wakizashi I just bought from Mark Green, there is a fair amount of space between the sides of the blade and the inside of the habaki (which appears to be a 2-piece type, although I haven't had it off yet to look and tell for certain). The tsuka is not tightly or properly fitted on the blade, so there is a fair amount of wiggle between the components (tsuba, habaki, seppa, and fuchi). Rattle, would be a better description. The mune machi rests in a "notch" in the mune side of the habaki, but the mune of the blade does not sit flush with the mune side of the habaki (habaki maybe thicker than the depth of the mune machi?), while the ha machi is hidden inside the habaki. Otherwise, aside from the gap, the inside of the habaki more-or-less conforms to the cross-sectional contour of the blade. I'll post some photos on Monday (I'm away from home right now, so I have neither my camera nor my mekugi nuki handy).

 

Anyway, how do I tell whether my habaki fits correctly or not? Were poorly-fitting habaki sometimes found on old blades put in gunto mounts, as this one originally was?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Rich, a well mounted sword has no rattles at all. Everything must fit as tightly as possible.

 

Habaki that rattles are a no-no and this often depends on the level of the blade. Some have been polished a bit and the habaki never replaced to fit the new thickness of the blade, usually to spare money. Or the Habaki can simply have been replaced with another from a different blade. Assembled mounts with not exactly matching pieces are quiet common out there (not saying yours is the case).

[Grey Doffin]

Rich,

You've been telling us that you want to collect unwanted blades, ones that show wear and use, and that you're not bothered by huge flaws, in spite of being told repeatedly that you're making a big financial and collecting mistake. And now you're bothered by the fit of the habaki?

Grey

[cabowen]

Two reasons why habaki do not fit correctly:

 

Habaki on blades that have seen many polishes will rattle due to the fact that the nakago will be thicker in the middle than at the hamachi, thus it has to be wider to fit over the widest part of the nakago.

 

Habaki will also rattle and fit poorly if they weren't made for the sword. You can always see a few people at sword shows carting around a beater blade looking for a habaki to put on it....They almost never fit correctly....

[nagamaki - Franco]

Habaki on blades that have seen many polishes will rattle due to the fact that the nakago will be thicker in the middle than at the hamachi, thus it has to be wider to fit over the widest part of the nakago.

 

A properly made habaki will not come in contact with the nakago regardless of how much wider (due to polishing), the nakago is and at the same time fit perfectly tight on the sword. The problem is there are very few habaki makers that know how to compensate for this difference and still make everything work out exact.

 

Where the habaki meets the tsuka, there should be absolute zero play. Play at this point may result in catastrophic type failure when executing a cut.

 

Another problem often leading to loose habaki is that while most habaki start out fitting properly, many habaki become loose over time due to incorrect reassembly techniques used by collectors/owners. These are incorrect techniques which apply too much upward force to reseat the habaki-tsuka on to the sword, which in turn overtime begins to force apart the habaki.

[cabowen]

 

A properly made habaki will not come in contact with the nakago regardless of how much wider (due to polishing), the nakago is and at the same time fit perfectly tight on the sword. The problem is there are very few habaki makers that know how to compensate for this difference and still make everything work out exact. .

 

How can a habaki fit tight to the sword at position B below when it has to be wide enough to fit over the nakago at A? Physically impossible.....

 

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hi Chris, it just may seem impossible. In fact I owned a sword with this exact problem when I bought it, having a habaki that was a struggle to remove and replace literally scraping and jamming along the surface of the nakago every time it was taken off or put back, because of the significant differences in width. Then, when I had the sword polished and a new habaki made, the new habaki (made by Mr. Tschernega) cleared the much wider nakago without a hint of contact and fit the blade perfectly tight (edit; unlike the loose original habaki). Believe me, my first call when it came back was to ask how this was done. In fact I was still amazed by this even many months later of servicing the sword. In hindsight I should have snapped an image showing the same illustration as your sketch. Ah, these tricky nihonto artisans!

[cabowen]

Maybe it was one of those trick habaki with the expandable waist band!

[kusunokimasahige]

Rich, this might be handy.

 

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/pdf-files/swordcare.pdf

 

I read sometimes rice paper or wood inside the habaki was used to wedge the loose habaki but i have not seen any examples of that.

 

From another site :

 

Remove the "habaki," or blade collar. This is possibly the most difficult part of katana disassembly, as it is very easy to damage the habaki. Damaging the habaki may cause it to become ill fitting for the katana blade. Use a block of soft wood slid along the blade and gently tap the blade collar free. Be careful not to cause injury from the exposed blade.

 

Could you post a photo of the nakago you drew Chris ? , i have never seen any nakago thicker than the blade itself.

 

KM

[cabowen]

Could you post a photo of the nakago you drew Chris ? , i have never seen any nakago thicker than the blade itself.

 

KM

 

I have no photo but the condition is rather common in old blades....

[Birdman]

Rich,

You've been telling us that you want to collect unwanted blades, ones that show wear and use, and that you're not bothered by huge flaws, in spite of being told repeatedly that you're making a big financial and collecting mistake. And now you're bothered by the fit of the habaki?

Grey

Hey now, Grey, no need to get nasty. Yes, the blade has some forging flaws. No, it isn't art or investment quality. It is still, unlike the first blade I bought, a sound and functional blade, and that is what I wanted. Mark told me that when he got the sword, it was in rather battered gunto mounts. The habaki is the only piece, other than the blade, that was with the sword when he got it. I don't know who did the actual refitting once the gunto mounts were removed (from my communications with Mark, it may have been Japanese Swords Ltd. - he mentioned "the guy in TX", once, and from all Ive read he has a rep for poor quality work), but it was very inexpertly done. The tsuka itself is ill-fitting, and the maki is terrible - very uneven, and obviously no hishigami were used. The fit of the habaki is important to me because I want to refit the blade PROPERLY, and for everything to fit together CORRECTLY, in order to return it to full functionality.

[moss]

Rich,

 

I don't think Grey is having a go at you.

Just how many times do we read the same kind of early posts as yours,where someone is looking for a cheap this and that....

Then posts a little later their disappointment that it is not a Juyo piece at NCO prices

 

The advice given by the board was sound enough,investment quality pieces will require some hard saving so better to start now,a tonne of study and being in the right place at the right time with the right $.

Thats alot of variables to bring together,unless of course you fluke the find of the century that everyone else has missed.

 

To have all the koshirae refitted properly I take it you are having that done traditionally/professionally.

 

Cheers

Moss

[sanjuro]

I think what people are trying to say is that you need to have a habaki made to fit the sword. Its not rocket science. You bought a sword that has been polished a lot and the nakago is a little thicker than the blade at the habaki moto. Or, you have a blade with a habaki that was not made for it. In either case it cannot and will not be a fully functional sword until the situation is remedied. Cost.. approximately $400

 

The obvious solution is to buy better swords, but you seem to have an obsession about becoming the owner of what amounts to the nihonto junkpile. Good stuff aint cheap and cheap stuff aint good no matter how you dress it up. The only purpose you will serve in the long run as you buy mounts etc for these sorry examples, will be to make the lower end dealers on ebay a little richer. (At best), and at worst you will make a craftsman a lot richer if you have the stuff made properly. Is this sword worth it?

[Birdman]

Rich,

 

I don't think Grey is having a go at you.

Just how many times do we read the same kind of early posts as yours,where someone is looking for a cheap this and that....

Then posts a little later their disappointment that it is not a Juyo piece at NCO prices

 

The advice given by the board was sound enough,investment quality pieces will require some hard saving so better to start now,a tonne of study and being in the right place at the right time with the right $.

Thats alot of variables to bring together,unless of course you fluke the find of the century that everyone else has missed.

 

To have all the koshirae refitted properly I take it you are having that done traditionally/professionally.

 

Cheers

Moss

**Sigh** Why is a simple question taken as "disappointment that it isn't Juyo"? How many times do I have to repeat myself: I AM NOT AN ART COLLECTOR OR INVESTOR! I DO NOT CARE ABOUT A "RETURN ON MY INVESTMENT". The sheer snobbery I get from certain individuals instead of a straight answer to my questions because my choice of blades does not meet their elitist standards gets aggravating. And I'm not the only one who has received such treatment on this forum - I have heard from others who have gotten the same from here and posted about it on the SBG forum. Maybe their swords don't meet the standards of this forum, but at least most of them are friendlier and helpful towards those with less knowledge and/or experience, and don't often disparage others' choices.

 

To the folks who HAVE been helpful: thank you very much; I appreciate it.

 

To the shallow-minded elitist snobs who can't just accept or fathom the way that I want to enjoy my own swords: nuts to you. Enjoy your art collections. Make millions on them if that's what turns you on. But don't expect me to give a rip about doing that myself.

 

And, I did not buy this sword from a "lower end Ebay dealer". I bought it from another member of this very forum, Mark Green.

 

As for getting my sword refitted, I am looking towards Lohman's, though I am supplying my own fittings in any case.

[moss]

No elitism or snobbery here Rich,

 

No shouting with capitals either,you got your answer.

 

The way to solve this hibaki situation is to have a new one made,simple answer.

No one suggested the blade came from a low end dealer on Ebay,unless I missed something

Some of the fittings you have posted may be confused.

 

regards

Moss

[sanjuro]

The beauty of a forum such as this is that you have access to a range of opinions. The drawback is that if you cant handle an adverse opinion your feathers get ruffled. Strangely enough and contrary to your opinion, we most of us dont think in terms of profit or investment unless it is an investment in knowledge and the personal satisfaction of owning a fine original piece.

In this instance, you have asked a question and received an almost universal answer to the effect that if your habaki doesnt fit then you need to have a new one made by a professional. This would be the answer whether your sword cost $5 or $50,000, and regardless of its condition. Where I would like to know is the elitist snobbery in that?

We have not communicated in shouty capital letters, nor have we called you names in the process of answering your questions. We have only offered sound advice and truthful answers.

 

Your attitude therefore perplexes me, but only momentarily....... :D

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Rich,

First, I want to apologize to you. I had forgotten that you intended to remount this sword and in that case your concern about the fit of the habaki is justified.

Second, I don't think my attitude is elitist. My concern in your case (and I realize that it is your case, not mine to control, but you did ask for advise way back when) is that when you get finished remounting this sword, if you add up all that you've spent, you'll find that for the same price you could have bought something much nicer, something that will be worth what you have in it when the time comes to sell, not a small fraction as will be the case with this sword.

But you collect what you want; that's your business. I'm glad that you don't collect the same as me; I don't need any more competition. Sorry again about the habaki remark.

Grey

[Birdman]

Hi Rich,

First, I want to apologize to you. I had forgotten that you intended to remount this sword and in that case your concern about the fit of the habaki is justified.

Second, I don't think my attitude is elitist. My concern in your case (and I realize that it is your case, not mine to control, but you did ask for advise way back when) is that when you get finished remounting this sword, if you add up all that you've spent, you'll find that for the same price you could have bought something much nicer, something that will be worth what you have in it when the time comes to sell, not a small fraction as will be the case with this sword.

But you collect what you want; that's your business. I'm glad that you don't collect the same as me; I don't need any more competition. Sorry again about the habaki remark.

Grey

Apology accepted. And I want to apologize as well. I shouldn't post when it's late at night and past my regular bed-time - I tend to get grumpy and irritable . And, I will admit, I tend to be a bit sensitive to criticism, real or perceived - being emotionally abused and having my kids being taken away from me for the majority of the year by my control-freak ex wife tends to do that sort of thing.

 

One option I want to look into, is there is a custom jeweller local to me who does really excellent work. I want to seee if perhaps he can make a nice silver habaki. I'll show him the sword on my way back home from my parents' place on Monday.

[nagamaki - Franco]

One option I want to look into, is there is a custom jeweller local to me who does really excellent work. I want to seee if perhaps he can make a nice silver habaki. I'll show him the sword on my way back home from my parents' place on Monday.

 

Jeweler, habaki, huh!!!! You're here asking for advice, are you not understanding what is being said? Nihonto work, restoration, requires highly skilled fully trained craftsman to do the work properly, safely, you don't just go to the local jeweler for this work!

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Could you post a photo of the nakago you drew Chris ? ,

 

not the same but useful I hope, (I don't think Chris have an overpolished blade as this one).

 

 

[kusunokimasahige]

Wow i did not know that there were swords which were that overpolished, i can imagine that an overpolished sword could break easily if it gets really polished down.

 

That would be detrimental to the quality of the blade imho.

 

So basically a sword can be destroyed by overpolishing, not to mention the loss of beauty.

I thought that did not happen too often with Nihonto.

 

KM

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

In this specific case is a Tanto, but happens to swords as well.

[Andi B.]

KM, here is also one example where I can not imagine that a habaki will properly fit (if it is possible - what is the trick?)

-> I suppose these blades are simpy worn down to crap without any possibility (and necessity) for mounting any habaki...

[Jean]

KM,

 

You must really see swords. These example given are found by thousands

[Birdman]

Jeweler, habaki, huh!!!! You're here asking for advice, are you not understanding what is being said? Nihonto work, restoration, requires highly skilled fully trained craftsman to do the work properly, safely, you don't just go to the local jeweler for this work!

'Twere just a thought... :?

[kusunokimasahige]

Jean, thank you, but here in the Netherlands there are hardly any sword shows, we do have a Dutch Token society but they almost never have any activity. The swords i can see are in Musea, also here in Leiden, and i have not asked any curator yet to have them taken apart.

 

KM

[Jean]

Take contact with the Dutch Token Society KM, see what are they activity. In Germany, they have regular meetings. Unfortunatelly, there is no other way to learn about Nihonto than seeing and handling swords.

[Birdman]

Well, here's some good news, at least. I found out my sword was ridiculously easy to disassemble - turns out the tsuka is cracked and split (I was planning to replace it anyway), and the mekugi could be simply pushed out to where it could be grabbed, then pulled out the rest of the way (didn't need my mekugi nuki, which is currently 113 miles away).

 

Upon disassembly, I found out the good news. The blade is the same width as the nakago, so fitting a new habaki should not be a problem. The blade seems to have been well cared-for, as the nakago is in decent condition, and the file-marks are still visible (appears to be sujikai, but I'm not an expert by far), though there's stable black rust present. One thing I noticed is the mune machi seems to be shallower than I would have thought - less than 1/8" though the ha machi is deeper. Neither appears to have been altered. The habaki looks to have maybe come from another sword, then squeezed towards the ha and mune to fit, thus springing out the sides.

 

Mark Green told me in an e-mail that it is entirely likely that, rather than having been taken from a dead Japanese personally by the old Marine whom Mark had bought it from, the sword may have come from a pile of them, and could even have been a bare blade assembled with random koshirae to make a complete sword, and that this was commonly done with captured swords taken as "war trophies". He also said the gunto saya seemed to have fit the blade rather badly - way too large for the blade.

[Brian]

Rich,

None of that is unusual, and not worth debating over. Have someone make another habaki and a shirasaya and you'll be fine. You see hundreds of these "parts swords" everywhere. Concentrate on the blade and do the restoration over time.

 

Brian

[george trotter]

Perhaps just one more comment on habaki fit on an overpolished blade? You will notice that besides the "fat" (in width) nakago pics here being compared with "skinny" (in width) blades there is another loose fit which occurs in this situation...and that is that the motohaba is often found to be reduced relative to the nakagohaba. This results in the ha-machi almost/completely being polished away and a new ha-machi being cut. In this case, not only is the habaki oversized on each side of the blade, it is basically being held in place by the mune-machi alone. I have a blade almost this bad....so, be aware.

regards,

George.