Study piece

[kokyo jin]

I am interested in any details you can provide on this Tsuba.

 

 

 

 

 

If anyone has such for sale, please let me know.

[Lorenzo]

Umetada? Cute.

[Soshin]

Posting measurements including the thickness of the tsuba would be helpful for study. Thanks.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[kokyo jin]

Posting measurements including the thickness of the tsuba would be helpful for study. Thanks.

 

Yours truly,

David S.

 

寸法　８．１ｘ８．１ｃｍ、茎穴厚さ０．３５ｃｍ、耳際０．４ｃｍ。

茎穴　０．９ｘ２．９ｃｍ。

[Steve Waszak]

Nice tsuba... I believe this is a Shoami tsuba, perhaps ko-Shoami (but seeing it in hand would help here...). The openness of those hitsu-ana are said to be signs of Shoami work: unlike the hitsu-ana of other "schools," Shoami often tend toward the more rounded and wide-open expression seen in this tsuba. Also, in the KTK supplement book published in (I believe) 2005, there is a very similar, if not identical tsuba featured. It is categorized as (ko?) Shoami.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Brian]

Well...since I can see repeated "Star of David"s here, I can only conclude that just like some tsuba have hidden crosses indicating secret Christian Samurai, this one must have belonged to the even rarer secret Jewish Samurai movement. :lol:

Sorry..nothing constructive to add. Interesting tsuba though.

 

Brian

[kokyo jin]

Maybe some more images will help you guys...?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kokyo jin]

 

 

[Steve Waszak]

What specific information are you seeking? You ask for "any details" we might provide, but this is vague. What sort of information are you hoping to gain by posting these photos? Please elaborate...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[kokyo jin]

Your 'ko-Shoami' explanation was helpful. Thank you.

but any idea on specific maker, period, pattern, etc.

 

I know it is a basket weave pattern (and yes, I am aware it resembles to 'Star of David'), but what is the Nihonto terminology? I would also like to know the pattern name in Japanese (Kanji).

 

Basically anything that will help me find further info on it.

 

It is in my 'wish-list', but I cannot search for it without knowing what it is.

[Steve Waszak]

Ah, I see. Okay, well the early Shoami artists didn't sign their work, so trying to figure out a specific maker for this piece likely isn't going to prove successful. As to its period, I would say late-Momoyama to early-Edo, circa 1600-1650. The iron appears to be of good quality, and there is no inlay. As a rule, the ko-Shoami craftsmen did not employ inlay as we would find later Shoami groups doing; additionally, the ko-Shoami are known for fine quality iron/steel, and I believe we can see that in this piece.

 

As to the particular name of this pattern/design in Japanese, and the kanji for that, I'll leave that to others to tackle...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[kokyo jin]

Thank you for this additional information.

 

As a beginner in this field, it certainly helps.

 

itsumo itsumo arigato m(_ _)m

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Hilik,

 

Just to amend my previous post, in looking again at the metal of this guard, I'm thinking it's probably from the later part of the period I mentioned, so I'd say circa 1650 or so. It can be a bit challenging to locate Shoami work, especially without the piece in-hand. The Shoami artists were so prolific and wide-ranging, over so long a period, that dating their work precisely becomes quite the task...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Soshin]

I would generally agree with Steve's attribution as to the age and school for this tsuba (Shoami, early Edo Period). The basket weave motif is wonderful as well. For many Ko-Shoami tsuba made before the Edo Period the Kogaihitsu-ana and Kozukahitsu-ana are frequently of a non-standardized shape. The tsuba in question has fairly standard but rounded shape common to Edo Period Shoami school looking kogaihitsu-ana. Here is a Kyo-Shoami tsuba that has similar iron and patina that dates to the early Edo Period. In this tsuba the kozukahitsu-ana looks like it was added later as it cuts into the oval cravings made to highlight the rice balls (onigiri お握り) that make up the (shippo no zu 七寶の図) design.

 

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[Marius]

and there is no inlay.

 

There are remnants of zogan on the rim.

 

The workmanship seems quite crude without being deliberately restrained. Thickness is quite substantial as well, and I don't see the iron being of very good quality. The composition of the sukashi lacks elegance so typical for ko-Shoami

 

My guess is mid or late Edo.

[Soshin]

Mariusz K.,

 

Thanks for pointing that out as I had to double check the photos of the tsuba. The tsuba does appear to have the remains of a kinzogan inlay around the edge of the mimi. This type of inlay were very common in middle to late Edo Period Shoami school tsuba. As the quality of inlay wasn't that good to begin with they would often rub off during normal use of the tsuba. I can post some examples from my collection if anyone likes.

As to the comparison of the iron and patina you can't really do that until you have the two tsuba in hand or unless you are able to take some professional quality photographs. With that said I still like the tsuba. :D

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[Steve Waszak]

Mariusz K.,

 

As to the comparison of the iron and patina you can't really do that until you have the two tsuba in hand or unless you are able to take some professional quality photographs.

 

 

Yes, David, you're exactly right here. As I suggested in earlier posts, without being able to examine the tsuba in-hand, the speculation as to metal quality, workmanship, and condition is just that---speculation. From looking at the photos we have, it is the thickness of the guard, more than anything, that could substantiate locating it later than early-Edo. Zogan does not eliminate an early-Edo dating, especially the latter part of the early Edo period. And again, those hitsu-ana point away from later Edo period dating. I could see this guard being of Genroku times, perhaps, but I'm not sure about dating it much later than this... As we so often see in Edo period tsuba, this piece presents features which confound easy attribution to specific times within the Edo period.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[kokyo jin]

interesting... Thanks.

 

Now, how about this one?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It has some kinzogan inlay of Matsu (?) left.

 

I would appreciate your thoughts...

 

Cheers,

[kokyo jin]

Several more photos..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[John A Stuart]

Sometimes tousogu can be not worth very much as a collectible. Just like some tired swords loaded with kizu they no longer have much to appreciate or to learn from. Now, I feel sorry for these old boys, but, like the blind old dog who can't hunt any more it is time to retire them to obscurity. However, feel free to find some redeeming feature of this and others, I don't want to be curmudgeonly (sp?). John

[Henry Wilson]

rice balls (onigiri お握り)

That is a strange theme for a tsuba.

 

The motifs look more like 4 inari zushi to me

 

 

Are you sure they are not rice bales?

 

[Marius]

However, feel free to find some redeeming feature of this and others. John

 

The plugs are nice, no?

 

Seriously - zogan is gone, what a pity. The huge lumps of tekkotsu on the plate show that this might be a late tsuba, a revival piece. In such tekkotsu are often overdone in an attempt to imitate pre-Edo tsuba. On this tsuba it looks like the maker could not control tekkotsu - these lumps are unsightly.

 

Just my two cents

[Soshin]

The motifs look more like 4 inari zushi to me

I would like to think it is four inmari zushi as I really like this type of sushi but they are likely rice bales. :D Thanks Henry for better identifying the design used to compose the overall shippo design.

 

Mariusz K.,

I think are correct in your analysis of the second tsuba posted by Hilik. The tekkotsu are over the top and a bit overdone.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[Marius]

Here is a Kyo-Shoami tsuba that has similar iron and patina that dates to the early Edo Period. .

 

David,

 

this is a wonderful tsuba. Very good example of how good ko-Shoami can be. Another example is here, you might want to see it quickly before Rich pulls the plug (he has sold it, and I could not afford it at that time )

 

http://www.nihonto-bijutsubu.com/person ... mokko.html

[Soshin]

this is a wonderful tsuba. Very good example of how good ko-Shoami can be. Another example is here, you might want to see it quickly before Rich pulls the plug (he has sold it, and I could not afford it at that time )

 

http://www.nihonto-bijutsubu.com/person ... mokko.html

 

Mariusz K.,

 

Thanks for the kind comments about the tsuba I picked up at the Florida Japanese Sword Show. I would consider the iron of my tsuba is a bit more homogeneous then the Ko-Shoami tsuba that Rich Turner once owned that was recently sold that you gave as another example. With that said I wound not consider my tsuba's iron completely homogeneous as there is tekkotsu and lamination folds can be observed along the sukashi opens and the out rim of the tsuba. This is why I agree with the attribution from the original owner as a early Edo Period Kyo-Shoami tsuba. I remember discussing this in another thread that the Kyo-Shoami group developed from the Ko-Shoami group after the Momoyama Period as the origin of the Ko-Shoami school was Kyoto. The "regional" Shoami school haven't develop yet in the Momoyama Period. This conclusion was developed by Bob Haynes and his teacher Dr. Torigoye. Rich's and my tsuba kind of supports this conclusion. I am sure there are others out there as well.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[kokyo jin]

 

The plugs are nice, no?

 

Seriously - zogan is gone, what a pity. The huge lumps of tekkotsu on the plate show that this might be a late tsuba, a revival piece. In such tekkotsu are often overdone in an attempt to imitate pre-Edo tsuba. On this tsuba it looks like the maker could not control tekkotsu - these lumps are unsightly.

 

Just my two cents

 

What does this mean exactly?

How would you estimate its' value?

[kokyo jin]

 

The plugs are nice, no?

 

Seriously - zogan is gone, what a pity. The huge lumps of tekkotsu on the plate show that this might be a late tsuba, a revival piece. In such tekkotsu are often overdone in an attempt to imitate pre-Edo tsuba. On this tsuba it looks like the maker could not control tekkotsu - these lumps are unsightly.

 

Just my two cents

 

Is it not of interest to a collectors?

[kusunokimasahige]

What does this mean exactly?

How would you estimate its' value?

 

Step outside, make your finger wet, and stick it up in the air.....

 

 

KM

 

The problem with estimating any value in art as well as antiques is that it is all in the eye of the beholder.

But seriously, workmanship, age, state of the object, visible damage, signature and a lot of other aspects all help to add any value.

 

Market value is always difficult, in one auction house this tsuba could fetch nothing, in another a lot..

it all depends on the sale room, the auctioneer, and the collectors and or dealers in the salesroom

 

Par example, i like it, but i do not like the metal bulge protruding on one part of the rim. It makes it look crude, unfinished. That would decrease value for me personally.

[Soshin]

The problem with estimating any value in art as well as antiques is that it is all in the eye of the beholder.

But seriously, workmanship, age, state of the object, visible damage, signature and a lot of other aspects all help to add any value.

 

Market value is always difficult, in one auction house this tsuba could fetch nothing, in another a lot..

it all depends on the sale room, the auctioneer, and the collectors and or dealers in the salesroom

 

Par example, i like it, but i do not like the metal bulge protruding on one part of the rim. It makes it look crude, unfinished. That would decrease value for me personally.

 

Completely agree with this statement. I think assigning a monetary value for different Nihonto related antique art (Jp. Tosogu) is beyond the scope of the this forum. I am of the opinion that this forum is more about determining authenticity and connoisseurship of Tosogu.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David S.

[kokyo jin]

 

Completely agree with this statement. I think assigning a monetary value for different Nihonto related antique art (Jp. Tosogu) is beyond the scope of the this forum. I am of the opinion that this forum is more about determining authenticity and connoisseurship of Tosogu.

 

Yours truly,

David S.

 

I agree on the monetary value.

I was not asking for a purpose of selling. Not going to, at the moment anyway.

I am interested in the added value.

 

I'm quite sure about the authenticity. Just the crude lumps seems odd to me..