GTSTCACTUS thanks the members...

[gtstcactus]

It would seem that the seller of the 3 of the swords I posted about is very angry about his swords being discussed. He seems to think that they were duscussed while the auctions were running. The threads were started a day after the auctions ended when I was offered the swords out of auction.

 

He has said "I was very disapointed to see my swords for auction on the sword chat line while the auction was live!

There are a lot of good people who know a lot about Japanese swords on this chat there is also a lot that know next to nothing and thay can all leave a post weather thay know what thay are saying or not.

And a lot of people just watch!These people may have seen my auctions and were put off buy you puting my auctions up there.And all the silly things said by all.

No Swords for sale Please do not! bid on any of my auctions again .

Bernard

 

I can only conclude that the good members here have exposed the swords for the low quality pieces they are.

I am no longer welcome to see them, purchase them or bid on his auctions... It would seem the experience and knowledge of the members here may saved me $3000.... If someone reacts like that about their public auction being discussed in a public place, after it has ended I don't think I want to deal with them.

 

So a big thank you to all who told me not to rush in..... It stopped my clicking the 2nd chance button, but I was still going to look... Now I'll keep that money and get a few more books and wait for the militaria auction in April, or maybe later.

 

Thanks again

Jason

[DirkO]

Jason,

 

This is quite a borderline thing. If let's say you discuss an active auction here and a few members praise the item, then the price might be higher because some people might act upon that information and vice versa if they dislike the blade...

 

Now I think the function of this forum is to educate people, but discussing live auctions is something I'd steer clear from, simply because every collector is also a seller at one point, and if you try to sell your blade and an online discussion is affecting your endprice, you wouldn't be too happy either... Now you'll say "it's better to have everything out in the open" so this won't harm. But what if some members talk down a blade because they're interested in it themselves ? Or praise it because they know the seller ? I'm not saying it's the case, but it's a possibility one shouldn't overlook.

 

@ admins : please correct me/delete this post if I stepped out of line or something.

[gtstcactus]

I just checked the times of the threads I started and the times the auctions ended. I actually started all the threads a day after the auctions finished.... I was offered the swords out of auction and sort members advice..... I only just thought to check the times. I'll provide a link to the finished auctions if requested to do so to prove so. So to make it clear I was not posting about a live auction.

 

I have sold a blade which was discussed on here and not a lot nice said about it. Didn't affect the sale of it at all as best I can tell.

[David Flynn]

Just a reminder Jason , don't rush into anything. If at the Militaria fair, you don't find anything that reallly grabs you, keep in mind the fact that you can come to the Sydney show in Sept. Last shinsa/show we had was in March 2009, and a few people came over from NZ.

[Muki]

In my opinion the internet is a free means to sell just about anything and as such any exposure and discussion is not only normal but to be expected. It is ridiculous to think that everyone will keep quiet when something is so publicly displayed. Further, if something for sale is being discussed as less than represented the public disclosures of a chat room or any other public forum will cause a very much warranted regulation on that very same sale. A person who talks "down" the item will in most circumstances I believe be found out "publicly" by other members of that same chat room and exposed. If not exposed, so what, other buyers need to spend more time researching, maybe even on that very same chat room.

 

I collect e-body mopars and use the internet from cars-online to moparts, public auctions and word of mouth to source cars and fully expect both good information and bad information during any and all exchanges. As both a buyer and seller of these cars I also make it a point to be very up-front about what I am dealing in. If I find a car in an auction and its rare enough I will buy a plane ticket and go to where its at to see it and the seller/agent face to face. Cheaper ones I do the research from afar.

 

If the seller is mad about the information exchange affecting his price and sale then the product is probably not worth it anyway or it will sell easily enough at that price.

 

jim

[gtstcactus]

Just a reminder Jason , don't rush into anything. If at the Militaria fair, you don't find anything that reallly grabs you, keep in mind the fact that you can come to the Sydney show in Sept. Last shinsa/show we had was in March 2009, and a few people came over from NZ.

 

No I won't rush into anything, I'll just be happy with the Wakizashi in shirasaya. It's nicer than the 1st sword I purchased, even if not perfect....

 

The militaria auction usually has between 6-12 Japanese swords, I'm keen just to go and look as much as anything... I'll give some serious thought to the shinsa in sydney.... I've been wanting to get back there for 15 years!

[sanjuro]

Gentlemen.

I'm taking this opportunity to voice a concern. Quite regardless of how this particular thread has eventually turned out, I am none the less concerned about the discussion of current auctions on this board. We are not and should never be considered as the 'auction police' venturing opinions that may influence the outcome of live auctions on ebay or anywhere else. Nor should the buying public at large feel free to ask us to make up their minds for them, which is essentially what they are doing when they ask for opinions from this board about items they are interested in. It places this board and its administration in a potentially difficult position, as well as the individuals on this board who may venture an opinion. It has been pointed out that as collectors we are all potential sellers and also potential buyers, we can also however as a group be totally wrong in judging someones potential purchase from pictures and sometimes fanciful descriptions alone, and thus render a seller a great injustice.'Rather one guilty man go free than convict an innocent man'

To err on the side of caution, I would rather that we as a forum did not do this. Other forums have policies that prohibit comment on live auctions for good reason. .

 

If the admin and mods feel this is an inappropriate comment, or put in an inappropriate place then please by all means delete.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

So a big thank you to all who told me not to rush in

 

No problems, but now it's my time to say this :

 

I expected about as much

[Thierry BERNARD]

Gentlemen.

I'm taking this opportunity to voice a concern. Quite regardless of how this particular thread has eventually turned out, I am none the less concerned about the discussion of current auctions on this board. We are not and should never be considered as the 'auction police' venturing opinions that may influence the outcome of live auctions on ebay or anywhere else. Nor should the buying public at large feel free to ask us to make up their minds for them, which is essentially what they are doing when they ask for opinions from this board about items they are interested in. It places this board and its administration in a potentially difficult position, as well as the individuals on this board who may venture an opinion. It has been pointed out that as collectors we are all potential sellers and also potential buyers, we can also however as a group be totally wrong in judging someones potential purchase from pictures and sometimes fanciful descriptions alone, and thus render a seller a great injustice.'Rather one guilty man go free than convict an innocent man'

To err on the side of caution, I would rather that we as a forum did not do this. Other forums have policies that prohibit comment on live auctions for good reason. .

 

If the admin and mods feel this is an inappropriate comment, or put in an inappropriate place then please by all means delete.

 

fully agree with you Keith!

[george trotter]

I remember being asked about a " shortened" sword in gunto mounts with and odd mei (Yoshimitsu) and an odder Tenmei date...is this what you are talking about? ...if so, my memory says you said you were considering purchasing this sword...I do not remeber you saying it was an auction item or that it was being offered as a 2nd chance.

We have discussed the issue before of being asked advice on a mei or sword quality ...only to be told later that the sword was a sale/auction item. The opinions were mixed.

I for one prefer to be told whether the sword is for auction or whatever then I can decide whether I want to be giving advice that might advantage or disadvantage a buyer or seller (who may be a NMB member).

When this happens I am very irritated at the lack of "honesty" in the questioner and feel "used". I know that nothing can be done after the event...except that those who resent this behavior can just put a mark next to the names of those who do it and ensure that they don't answer queries from that individual in future.

 

Hope this helps,

George.

[Mark]

when someone asks a question i sometimes ask " do you own the item" before giving an opinion. It seems bad form to get in the middle of someones deal. I want new collectors to learn and expand their interest in Japanese swords so do not want anyone to have a bad experiance. That being said i started before info was so easily available and i made bad decisions, sort of the the school of hard knocks. Not sure if easy is too easy or making a mistake kills interest so it is a tough balance

[cabowen]

I have always had a "no active auction discussion" policy on my internet chat group and while I have taken some abuse over it in the past, I have stuck with it and still believe it is a good policy on many levels. I personally try to avoid comment on active auctions as well when posting on other chat groups.

 

My basic view is that if you have to ask others questions about an item on auction you shouldn't be bidding in the first place.....

[gtstcactus]

I remember being asked about a " shortened" sword in gunto mounts with and odd mei (Yoshimitsu) and an odder Tenmei date...is this what you are talking about? ...if so, my memory says you said you were considering purchasing this sword...I do not remeber you saying it was an auction item or that it was being offered as a 2nd chance.

We have discussed the issue before of being asked advice on a mei or sword quality ...only to be told later that the sword was a sale/auction item. The opinions were mixed.

I for one prefer to be told whether the sword is for auction or whatever then I can decide whether I want to be giving advice that might advantage or disadvantage a buyer or seller (who may be a NMB member).

When this happens I am very irritated at the lack of "honesty" in the questioner and feel "used". I know that nothing can be done after the event...except that those who resent this behavior can just put a mark next to the names of those who do it and ensure that they don't answer queries from that individual in future.

 

Hope this helps,

George.

 

George, that sword is not one concerned in this situation. However if one says they are considering purchasing something (as you remember me saying), then is it not simple logic that it is a sale item? If it were not a sale item, one would not be considering purchasing it.....

The swords were for auction, the auction ended, after auctions an offer was made (I considered purchasing) but decided not to purchase before seeing the swords, the seller contacted me thru the question section of one of my auctions with their email and an offer to purchase 2 of his 3 swords (not the one with the mei and tenmei, that was for sale by someone else), I sought members advice, then this afternoon I get the email about the posting of the swords, and told they not for sale anymore etc....

 

SO I WAS NOT POSTING ABOUT A CURRENT AUCTION. I POSTED ABOUT AN AUCTION THAT HAD ENDED, AND THE SELLER CONTACTED ME PRIVATELY ABOUT PURCHASING THE SWORDS. HE OBVIOUSLY SPOTTED THE POSTS YESTERDAY, AND HAS THROWN A WOBBLY NOT BOTHERING TO GET FACTS STRAIGHT ABOUT WHEN THREADS WERE POSTED.

I POSTED AROUND 24 HOURS AFTER AUCTIONS ENDED.

[gtstcactus]

 

No problems, but now it's my time to say this :

 

I expected about as much

[cabowen]

SO I WAS NOT POSTING ABOUT A CURRENT AUCTION. I POSTED ABOUT AN AUCTION THAT HAD ENDED, AND THE SELLER CONTACTED ME PRIVATELY ABOUT PURCHASING THE SWORDS. HE OBVIOUSLY SPOTTED THE POSTS YESTERDAY, AND HAS THROWN A WOBBLY NOT BOTHERING TO GET FACTS STRAIGHT ABOUT WHEN THREADS WERE POSTED.

I POSTED AROUND 24 HOURS AFTER AUCTIONS ENDED.

 

 

You did nothing unethical here as far as I can see. Clearly the seller is confused (or not)...

[gtstcactus]

 

You did nothing unethical here as far as I can see. Clearly the seller is confused (or not)...

 

Thank you!

[sanjuro]

Jason.

 

The issue about the NMB forum becoming the Auction Police is not about you or your recent dealings with this particular seller. Quite frankly, it has been your saga of recent postings about 'should I buy this or that sword' that has prompted my posting of my concerns here, but beyond that, the issue is much larger than your minor dealings and use of the NMB as panel of experts to help you select swords. For that matter it is bigger than any individual forum member. Too often there comes the question' what do you think of this sword'? and a link to a live auction. Any comment made upon that item stands a chance of influencing the outcome of the auction. There are simply more important principles at stake here than your being considered squeaky clean or not in this particular instance.

[DirkO]

Any comment made upon that item stands a chance of influencing the outcome of the auction.

 

Yep, my point exactly Keith. If someone gives an opinion on a blade it's just that, an opinion. But opinions are too often taken for fact ...

[gtstcactus]

Is it really any different than say when buying a new computer and going to a tech / pc forum and asking a few questions, getting opinions on few models..... Nobody seems to mind then.....

 

No one gets upset at the cactus forum about people discussing cacti for sale

[kusunokimasahige]

To be honest, there can be a danger in discussing live auctions on here, however !

 

Many people have been saved by the members of this forum of buying from dubious sellers.

Many people have been warned and educated about fakes as well as scammers and fraudsters.

Many people who ask quite simple questions are helped in a very thorough and honest way.

 

I do not think that any collector on here would talk a sword down and then start bidding on it. He would be found out

by fellow members, and he would lose a lot of standing in the community.

 

Most of the swords which are debunked on here are low end or fake. This also goes for the Tosogu auctions.

It is only natural that fellow collectors discuss these things, especially in the case of educating the larger audience and

beginning collector.

 

I personally think it is a good thing to keep doing this.

The reaction of the seller, and his remarks about chat lines, do not at all give any indication he meant this forum.

Especially his mentioning about chatting while the auction is on is faulty.

 

You yourself did nothing wrong, apart from maybe what Sanjuro points out with which i do agree.

 

The entire way his message was conveyed to you gives me the distinct feeling that this is a reaction of somebody who has been found out (i refer the older members to the memory of the Mackstar rantings, very similar in tone).

And dont even get me started on his English....

 

Especially the trying to sell out of auction part of the story made my alarm bells ring.

 

That is why we warned you, some more diligent than others, some more polite than others, (not me, for which i apologize) but after all, something good came out of it and you saved yourself some money.

 

Whether or not discussing "live" auctions and online sellers will continue on this board, and i for one am a supporter of these discussions, is up to Brian and the moderating team.

 

I for one am happy you were saved from a probable bad buy.

 

KM

[sanjuro]

Jason.

If you really need this explained to you then consider this:

 

PC's are consumer items. millions of units per annum change hands and you can go out and buy a better one or a new one if you dont like the one you have.

 

Someone will always grow a better/different cactus. ( God.....I dont believe I'm doing this)

 

A nihonto is an art object, an artifact and a piece of history. It is one of a kind and is definately not a consumer item. Nor can it be replaced by an identical new shiny 4 or 5 hundred year old blade. They also do not grow in a bloody flower pot.

 

Shall I go on??????????????

[gtstcactus]

Jason.

 

Someone will always grow a better/different cactus. ( God.....I dont believe I'm doing this)

 

A nihonto is an art object,................... Nor can it be replaced by an identical new shiny 4 or 5 hundred year old blade.

 

Someone will always have made a better/different nihonto.....

 

yes a nihonto is an art object, of course it can't be replaced by a new shiny 4 or 5 hundred year old blade but it could be replaced by an old one.....

[kusunokimasahige]

Jason, the point was that your comparison did not match up with the fact that the Nihonto trade is a different one than the consumer computer trade.. Your comparison may have counted during the Sengoku jidai and edo period, but not anymore.

 

Please just accept that you were lucky this time, saved a lot of bucks, and please do not react to postings anymore like a schoolboy in puberty...

 

(this is not meant insulting, i know i can act as childish at times, however not anymore on this board, since i learned my lesson the hard way, and Brian's bat is a hard one....)

 

KM

[Lee Bray]

My basic view is that if you have to ask others questions about an item on auction you shouldn't be bidding in the first place.....

 

Exactly. Caveat emptor. Any item, Nihonto or not.

 

I see the purpose of this forum as exposing outright fakes and dodgy sellers/buyers.

The discussion of legit auctions, despite how poor/fantastic/gimei is dubious and, I think, generally avoided by most and not condoned by admin.

[Muki]

How can the purpose of the board be to expose "outright fakes and dodgy sellers/buyers" in any worthwhile fashion unless its before a purchase is made? After the fact doesn't do anyone any good except the next buyer who ALSO wont be able to ask questions. Being polite and straightforward by the members when discussing the merits of a sword at an auction are not difficult and perhaps limiting the discussion to the salient "artistic" qualities of a sword such as condition, appeal, truthfulness of mei etc would be ok? Avoiding price questions directly leaves very little argument for a hopeful salesperson to quible with although if price is publicly displayed on a COMMERCIAL auction site then this is too fair game. Auction sites are not private sales arenas in any sense of the word.

[Brian]

All points noted, and I agree with many of them. But I am not going to ban the discussion of live auctions, and probably never will. I have many reasons for that, and I may even elaborate in a day or 2 if I have the energy. People can choose to discuss these items or not...everyone has free choice. But we are going to be the one forum that gives decent advice and saves people money. Sometimes, we match up buyers with willing sellers too. eBay is public, so are opinions.

That being said, I have a firm policy here that any discussion of live auctions must be educational, and not just a frivolous discussion. I will tighten up on that policy, and discussions without a valid point will be deleted. I don't like influencing final values, but I also don't like the amount of underhanded dealings that are going on. Sellers need to develop some ethics and know that they are accountable for what they sell. Works both ways, I have seen many items sell a lot higher than they might have due to good, honest descriptions and fair discussion.

But be warned, discussion for the sake of influencing prices or for no valid reason will become a very serious matter here.

 

Brian

[sanjuro]

Last time I looked at the top of the page It said "Dedicated to the study and preservation of Japanese swords and fittings". It did not say 'dedicated to the prevention of would be purchasers of nihonto from the consequences of their own ignorance'.

Lets face it.... if you know nothing about nihonto why do you want one? First learn then buy is what we always advise. Why should the NMB act as an advisory service on what not to buy or what to buy for people who have taken no trouble to educate themselves even to the point of knowing an obvious fake from the real thing? firstly what gives us the right to make such a determination, and having made it and then having someone act on that advice, are we not then morally responsible for the outcome of the transaction if the item in question is not what we say it is?

[Brian]

And how does this differ from us discussing an item that may come up later for private sale?

Or discussing a mei on a sword that ends up for sale a year down the line and is searched for and found here?

Or discussing a dealer that someone had a bad experience with..or praising a dealer that may do someone a bad deal later.

Frankly, everything has its pitfalls. I am not going to start legislating every possibility. We have opinions. That's all it is, and anyone who thinks differently is nuts. We can be wrong or right. We are not a newspaper or encyclopedia and people have to understand that. I don't recall us elevating our status anywhere at all. In fact, I think people go to great lengths to emphasise that all statements are opinions and are fallible.

We either get over ourselves and do what we have been doing for the past 5 years, or we go back to dealing face to face and hide our heads in the sand. Somehow I think this formula works well for the most part. We can always streamline things, but I am not going to make major changes because of sudden paranoia.

I didn't get the part where all of the novices were only fooled by obvious fakes. Has everyone been absent or blind, while the fakes have been becoming far less obvious, and some of the tosogu even fooling advanced collectors? Not everything is black and white.

 

Brian

[kusunokimasahige]

"Dedicated to the study and preservation of Japanese swords and fittings"

 

In what way is warning someone about a possible bad buy or fake not adding to the preservation of Japanese swords and fittings ?

"if you know nothing about nihonto why do you want one?"

 

A lot of reasons with the beginning buyer.

 

-shiny and sharp

-Samurai !

-Cool !

-WOW !

 

(these people most of the times end up with a Chinise fake which they then post here adding the question is it real ? and what signature is this ? on which the answer follows, Chinese fake, signature says Two Babi-Pangang and one shark fin soup please)

 

Other reasons, investment, beginning interest, beginning a collection, and wanting to learn. Yes not everyone will first study and learn, and then buy.. I see this all the time in re-enactment when people are coming to a Roman display proudly wearing Elven mail... and getting miffed when they are forbidden to participate....

 

 

"firstly what gives us the right to make such a determination, and having made it and then having someone act on that advice, are we not then morally responsible for the outcome of the transaction if the item in question is not what we say it is?"

 

There you have a point Keith, i would say morally ? Yes maybe. The choice to buy or not buy is solely the buyers, not ours.

 

However, the collectors on this board are never unwilling nor shy when it comes to answering sometimes dumb questions from beginners.

 

We all started once, and most of us will have had some bad experience with any collecting in the beginning... Hello, is this a German helmet ? on which you get the answer, no it is a firemans helmet of the 1950's made from aluminum... Oh but it had double SS decal and i payed 300 US$ for it.......

 

The examples i give apart from the elven mail are hypothetical but can and do happen.

 

So yes, it is by the grace of the members of this forum who want to help out that advice is given.

If no one would discuss this here, people would go to SFI or other places where maybe less knowledgeable people roam about.

 

KM

[sanjuro]

Brian.

Hmmm..... I wasnt exactly aiming for paranoia. More like caution actually. However, point taken. Having posed the question for the sake of discussion rather than in an attempt to alter policy, I appreciate the balancing viewpoint. :D