Andi B. Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 Also a nice and newer no action but sword related movie is Ame Agaru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_the_Rain_(film)). BTW: Does anybody knows, if "Koutatsu of Shimosa province" is a imaginary name of a swordsmith or could he be based on a historical person? (..."Koutatsu of Shimosa province" is the smith of Zatoichis blade and I would like to know if the scriptwriters mixed fantasy with historical facts...) Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 Morning all Here's a link: http://www.japanesesamuraidvd.com/ I have not purchased anything from them yet, so view the link accordingly. Cheers Malcolm Quote
IanB Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 David's point about the Japanese using the French as the model for their new army led to an unfortunate lapse in Japanese taste. It seems the Shogun liked the idea of cuirassiers and ordered kit from France to equip a bodyguard. There duly arrived crested helmets, breasts and backs from the Klingenthal arsenal whilst the jackets, trousers and boots were probably made in Japan. Now on a 6 foot plus Frenchman this uniform looks splendid. On the rather small statured Japanese of that era, the thigh-length boots must have looked distinctly unfortunate. Anyway, when the Germans won the Franco-Prussian war, so the idea was dropped and the German army was taken as a model. In the Museum attached to the Yasukuni Shrine there is an unmodified helmet and cuirass from this venture whilst the Royal Armouries has the same parts converted into a standard Japanese armour. By the way, Stephen Turnbull is acting as advisor on the 47 Ronin film. Ian Bottomley Quote
sencho Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 Turnbull is acting as advisor on the 47 Ronin film. I think he may regret putting his name to that! I guess he is not advising on the "stylized fantasy" parts of the movie. Reeves is like a plank of wood when he speaks English... Imagine him attempting a dude filled Japanese dialog... Or was he that "historical" American in Japan, so famously recorded during the period? We shall see... Cheers! Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 Dr. Turnbull has also advised on the new Shogun Total War 2 game... But also in that game, historical accuracy has been thrown out of the window in favour of gameplay, KM Quote
John A Stuart Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 Dr. Stephen Turnbull has been good at promoting Japanese history with a plethora of picturesque books and kudos for that, but, has been known to incorporate inaccuracies therein. For serious study I would avoid most of them. There are some really good authors out there ie, Vaporis, Varley, Berry, Hall, Hayashiya Tatsuburo, Grossberg, Ito Teiji and on and on. John Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 Thank you John for those authors ! I have read some of dr. H. Paul Varley's work. I will try to find some of the rest of their books. KM Quote
pcfarrar Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 I enjoyed last years NHK Taiga "Sakamoto Ryoma". Very good TV series if your interested in the Bakamatsu period and much better than anything Hollywood could turn out. Quote
Clive Sinclaire Posted February 26, 2011 Author Report Posted February 26, 2011 They are now making a movie of the 47 Ronin, starring... wait for it.... Keanu Reeves!!! Can't wait for that load of old bollocks to arrive!! Cheers Gerntlemen This is the reason that I started this thread, as I met both Hiroyuki Sanada and Keanu Reeves a couple of days ago in the UK and showed them both some of my swords. They seemed quite impressed to handle "real and antique samurai-swords" although scarely, they wanted to wave them about. I at least had the opportunity of explaining, mainly to Keanu, about various sugata, hamon, jihada etc. He is an exceedingly pleasant chap and we will meet again after they all get back from filming in Hungary. Hiroyuki san was introduced to me as HIRO and I didn't immediately click who it was as he wore heavy framed glasses! I also met the director of the new 47 Ronin and a number of those working on the movie both here, in Hungary and in USA. Dispel any thoughts that this is a historically accurate account of the Ako incident. It is firmly aimed at the, I quote "Manga audience" and not for those of a more purist leaning. So long as you have advance knowledge of this and are not therefore disapointed when you see it, I see nothing intrinsically wrong in this. The last time I saw "Chushinagura" in the Ginza kabuki theatre about 18 months ago, the incident had been moved to Kamakura and the Ashikaga shoguns were ruling the countr- so much for historical accuracy! Regards Clive Quote
Clive Sinclaire Posted February 26, 2011 Author Report Posted February 26, 2011 Sorry I forgot to say that Dr S Turnbull's first book, The Samurai - A Military History, is an excellent reference that I have found exceedingly useful over the years. Clive Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 The last time I saw "Chushinagura" in the Ginza kabuki theatre about 18 months ago, the incident had been moved to Kamakura and the Ashikaga shoguns were ruling the countr- so much for historical accuracy! If I remember right this was (is?) often the case with chushingura plays, originally written in un-historically way to avoid the wrath of the Shogunate. Keanu hasn't such a problem... Quote
sencho Posted February 26, 2011 Report Posted February 26, 2011 They are now making a movie of the 47 Ronin, starring... wait for it.... Keanu Reeves!!! Can't wait for that load of old bollocks to arrive!! Cheers Dispel any thoughts that this is a historically accurate account of the Ako incident. It is firmly aimed at the, I quote "Manga audience" and not for those of a more purist leaning. So long as you have advance knowledge of this and are not therefore disapointed when you see it, I see nothing intrinsically wrong in this. Clive, I take it you use this argument for the Last Samurai then? The last time I saw "Chushinagura" in the Ginza kabuki theatre about 18 months ago, the incident had been moved to Kamakura and the Ashikaga shoguns were ruling the country - so much for historical accuracy! Regards Clive This Chushinagura argument does not wash with me. It is like saying that the recent TV butchery of the Tudor dynasty is fine, because Henry V does not have historical accuracy.... I note Carlo's point here too. I would suggest that this movie will be great for business, entertaining for some and cringeworthy for others, just like the Last Samurai was. However it will at most certainly have the same effect as the Last Samarai; people will believe it is historically acurate.. After all King Henry VIII's sister murdered the King of Portugal and the American Navy turned the tide of WWII, by capturing an Enigma machine and related cyphers.... ....Don't tell me...? Bill and Ted land their phone booth in 18th Century Japan smack bang in the middle of the Ako Incident. General mayhem, hilarity, a run away and out of control palanquin and a school project ensues, and it all ends up with an A for historical irrelevance on the report card..... can't wait! :D PS... I don't mean to mean to denegrate Mr. Reeves personally, I am sure he is a very plesant gentleman.... just that he is not, in my opinion the most talented actor to ever grace the stage or screen... still I am sure he has more money than I will ever have, and maybe that is what counts most... Quote
Andi B. Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 We should wait how the 47 Ronin will be... I suppose it will be an interesting movie because of the plot but it will also have many historical inaccuracies we ("we few, we discering few, we band of brothers") will discover. But it is like that - we should never forget that these movies have the intention to make money by entertaining as much people as possible and not to proclaim historical facts. Cinema has no educational mandate / responsibility. I'm curious where they will place the compulsory love story in this Chushingura movie... Quote
cabowen Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 I'm curious where they will place the compulsory love story in this Chushingura movie... I'm curious as to where a westerner (Reeves) fits in.... Quote
John A Stuart Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Well he is part Chinese if that counts. He certainly has a few blood lines and moved around a lot. John Quote
Clive Sinclaire Posted February 27, 2011 Author Report Posted February 27, 2011 Gentlemen I agree that ideally we would like to see historically accurate potrayals of these events, but we are a minority and things are often changed in order to find a public or widespread audience. Most films cater for a mass-market and it always has been so. Incidentally, do you believe that Richard the 3rd said a horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse or that Henry 5th said "cover up the breach with our English dead at Agincourt. These are Shakespeare's words and not historically true but are quite acceptable, I believe. Keanu seemed like a nice guy to me and said that in this film, his charactr was a half-cast born of a Dutch trader and Japanese woman and that he was abandoned as a child and taught swordsmanship by the Tengu, which I think was what was supposed to have happened to Yoshitsune? Anyhow, he was genuinly interested in seeing my swords and I thought it worthwhile showing them to both him and Hiroyuki Sanada of course. Clive Quote
sanjuro Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Gentlemen..... gentlemen! We are talking here of Hollywood, an entire culture of historically ignorant and culturally insensitive dream spinners. Dammit! they even had problems getting the 'Lord of the Rings' historically accurate, and that was pure fiction and fantasy to start with. Accuracy and fidelity are unknown in Hollywood. They have but one story line which they can set in any mixture of historical period, costume (not necessarily congruent) and character mix (not necessarily factual or even accurate). They then start to mix in pure fiction. What do we expect? Reality? in Hollywood even reality is directed, rehearsed and has a couple of takes before the press and the general public are allowed to see it. I suppose they could have chosen a worse actor for the role in 47 Ronin...... Charlie Sheen perhaps? Incidentally.... Did Scottie really say "Beam me up, theres no intelligent life down here" or is that pure fiction too???????? :D Quote
reinhard Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Accuracy and fidelity are unknown in Hollywood. Accuracy and fidelity are not unknown in Hollywood. It's just that they don't matter much in Hollywood's business plans. Since making movies for the big screen has turned into a multi-million dollar investment, Hollywood handed over movie-making to accountants and lawyers. That's why most of Hollywood's movies are so incredibly boring and predictable from the start. It takes quite a calibre to enforce accuracy of details at least, not to speak of historical accuracy. Stanley Kubrick was quite successful with "Barry Lyndon", f.e., no matter how accurate Thackeray's novel looks like from a Historian's perspective. Martin Scorcese is trying to smuggle accuracy and fidelity of details into his pictures and is doing quite well. Ridley Scott didn't, nor will he give history lessons, but the glasses in "Gladiator" looked at least like Roman glass. I thank him for that and for two hours of good entertainment. That's what Hollywood is good for at its best. There is nothing else to expect. Definitely no history lessons. Last, but not least. See "Tasogare Seibei" ("Twilight samurai"). It will give you a feel for samurai culture like no other movie. reinhard Quote
Brian Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Any feelings about actors and Hollywood aside, I think you did a great job Clive. Taking the time to educate can only benefit the movie and our hobby in general. Kudos to you. Personally, I am able to suspend belief and watch some of these movies purely for entertainment value, without expecting too much. I don't watch movies to learn about history (well..not often) and sometimes you just want to be entertained on a basic level. Well done Clive, and thanks for the movie recommendations all..some of them I have but haven't watched yet. Will have to remedy that asap. Brian Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 I would like to cast Keanu Reeves for my upcoming movie, the battles of Coxinga. KM Twilight samurai is one of the best films i have ever seen on the Samurai world, it is right up there with Seppuku, Ganzo the spearman and assasin. Quote
sencho Posted February 27, 2011 Report Posted February 27, 2011 Incidentally, do you believe that Richard the 3rd said a horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse or that Henry 5th said "cover up the breach with our English dead at Agincourt. These are Shakespeare's words and not historically true but are quite acceptable, I believe. Yes absolutely acceptable! Clive, was that an intentional inaccuracy there? Removing Henry's (fictional) motivational speech to Agincourt instead of Harfleur?? You old tester, you!! :lol: I guess I regard Shakespeares' tetrologies, and their numerous inaccuracies both intentional, or otherwise, as historical themselves; much like Chushinagura. "Now set the teeth and stretch the nostril wide, Hold hard the breath and bend up every spirit To his full height. On, on, you noblest English." ..... Terrific! Felt like that at Twickenham yesterday!! (sorry Jean!) Quote
Clive Sinclaire Posted February 27, 2011 Author Report Posted February 27, 2011 Clive, was that an intentional inaccuracy there? Removing Henry's (fictional) motivational speech to Agincourt instead of Harfleur?? You old tester, you!! I stand most humbly corrected, I can only blame it on the almost sober elation at the result of the Twickenham encounter over our friends living south of Dover. To quote Wellington after the Battle of Waterloo "it was a near run thing" Clive Quote
ububob Posted February 28, 2011 Report Posted February 28, 2011 Hi Clive, I have a couple of references that include an expletive with the Peer's famous quote above. Did you remove it in deference to the politeness of our society. Quote
Gregc Posted March 22, 2011 Report Posted March 22, 2011 I loved the part where they leave him the pile of clothes... gi, hakama, obi, etc.... He goes in the dressing room and comes out PERFECT! It took me a LOT longer to learn how to wear the traditional garb. Quote
sanjuro Posted March 24, 2011 Report Posted March 24, 2011 Well, he is such a clever little SOB isnt he? He learned all the intricacies of Japanese swordsmanship in a couple of months, so I wouldn't expect dressing himself in totally foreign garb would be a great challenge to one of such great (sic) talent. Mind you, in the film he did fight rather like a man with both legs through the same leg of his hakama. And just for the record he sits and rides a horse more like Lee Marvin in 'Paint Your Wagons' than Toshiro Mifune in 'Red Sun'. :D Quote
chrisf Posted March 24, 2011 Report Posted March 24, 2011 Guys,what you are forgetting to take into account is the level of intelligence of the audiences that films like 'Last Samurai' are aimed at who have no idea of historical context or accuracy and don't give a toss anyway. Some years ago I was chatting with a group of undergraduates about 'Saving Private Ryan' and expressed the thought that the beach landing was probably a very accurate representation of the chaos of D-Day.Cue blank looks."D-Day,you know,D-Day,the invasion of Europe 1944,pivotal moment in World history?" No,they hadn't a clue because they didn't 'do' that period in their modules! SO when the audience is at that intellectual level why bother with accuracy and integrity just get the big stars in and count the $$$$$$ Agree totally about 'Twilight Samurai' and 'Hidden Blade' both beautifully,made-thought provoking films totally removed from Cruise's 'thud and blunder'. Quote
David Flynn Posted March 24, 2011 Report Posted March 24, 2011 Talk about inaccuracies, the 2nd Ranger battalion, didn't go over the beach, they were commando's. They went up the cliff at Pointe du Hoc. Ssssh and I'm an Aussie. Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted March 25, 2011 Report Posted March 25, 2011 Just saw Bushi no Ichibun.... Beautiful. Just like twilight samurai and the hidden blade, top quality feature films. I wish there were more. If Chushingura with Keanu touches but a brink of the quality in these films i will be pleased. However, i will go see the 47 ronin movie without prejudice. Hopefully the director will not go for the quick money action story. I do have a question however on the Japanese used in this film, as well as in the hidden blade. In stead of de gozaru or de gozaimasu, i hear a lot of : "de gansu" etc. Is this a classical form ? KM News: Takashi Miike trailer, 13 assassins http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/inde ... assassins/ Quote
bluelake Posted May 30, 2011 Report Posted May 30, 2011 All the yumi bows in The Last Samurai were made by a good friend of mine. However, he received no credit at all for them; in the supplementary DVD, the producers take all the credit. Similarly, I supplied the Korean-made bows for the movie, Alexander, but the Korean bowyer received no credit--the movie's armorer even used them in another movie and credited himself. Thomas Quote
Mark Green Posted May 31, 2011 Report Posted May 31, 2011 I saw 13 assassins. It is very so-so. Lots of very fake action, once the action begins. About a 2 of 5, as far as samurai movies go. Quote
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