Tekkan or tetsuken with kurikata

[estcrh]

 

Same shape and use, according to you. They are from the same *group* of weapons,

still they *aren't the same*.

To be clear...I was referring to the two types of so called hachiwari...The dirk type is what I think of as being completely from the club type that has been called a hachiwari also. Don Cunnungham also makes that distinction. I have several of the dirk type blades, with one being mounted in a shirasaya. The dirk type are not very heavy and could in no way be thought of as a club,....but as a stabbing weapon you can easily see its use, the square type of blade is known to leave a very nasty , hard to heal wound. More like a large ice pick then a knife. The club that is shaped like a hachiwari is not much different then any of the iron sword type clubs and can easily be included in the "uchimono" category. Some are straight and some curved but the use and function is the same,.....bashing someone....as opposed to stabbing them. Some of these weapons actually have small blades or spear type points hidden inside so you can bash and stabbed.

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Armored opponents did not disappear in the Edo period, the armor just changed.

 

Ah, right, that's a sensible point for you. Let say the type of conflicts changed, *sensibly*.

 

[ In "Secrets of the samurai: a survey of the martial arts of feudal Japan By Oscar Ratti, Adele Westbrook http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFf...kigomi&f=false the necessity of the continuation of the use of armor in the 200+yr Edo period as being common and a necessity is throughly discussed>>>>

 

Don't tell Tony (A.J.B.) you mention this text as source or it would get ballistic. It has been banned from Samurai Archives as one of the most ridicolous ever (do a search, you're registered there as well or go straight here).

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

To be clear...I was referring to the two types of so called hachiwari...The dirk type is what I think of as being completely from the club type that has been called a hachiwari also. Don Cunnungham also makes that distinction. I have several of the dirk type blades, with one being mounted in a shirasaya. The dirk type are not very heavy and could in no way be thought of as a club,....but as a stabbing weapon you can easily see its use, the square type of blade is known to leave a very nasty , hard to heal wound. More like a large ice pick then a knife.

 

Now I'm lost (possibly due to my english). You (or Don) are putting in the same category with the same name a blunt weapon and an exclusively stabbing one ?

 

EDIT : being completely from = mimiking it with another purpose ? The small one you posted pics of... Where's the point of mimiking a blunt-type sugata for stabbing ?

Couldn't simply be for something else, as were the child's swords ?

[John A Stuart]

I have those books, bought them before I had seen them via the web. I have a new rule, ' If the title has secret or hidden in it, be wary.' Don Cunningham's books are factual light reading on the subject, too brief however, but, myself would double check information obtained from 'Secrets of the samurai: a survey of the martial arts of feudal Japan By Oscar Ratti, Adele Westbrook'. John

[watsonmil]

Dear ALL,

I have read this most interesting thread and have up till now stayed away from contributing thought, as I am sure to be branded " Politically Incorrect ". Unlike John Stuart who is being most generous in his Politically correct terminology when he states that he has trepidations ( I think he used the word wary ) whenever he reads the words Hidden or Secret in the title of books on Japanese weapons. Anyways I have never been known to be Politically correct so here goes :

 

1. The Dirk type Hachiwara was clearly designed as a blocking and parrying weapon used in the left hand with a hook like protusion on the underside ... there being the hope of the opportune that it might by chance catch and thereby allow the user to hold the opponent's sword. This type of weapon was well known in Europe as a Main Gauche, ... see Stone's ... " A Glossary of the Construction Decoration and the Use of Arms and Armor " ... page 431. Please also note that many Main Gauche had notches in the blade to catch and hold an opponents sword ( Stone's does show only one, ... but I assure the reader these notches are quite commonly found ). The Japanese being good at improving upon a design but rarely of inventing , .... took the idea of a parrying weapon one step forward by also making it a Misericord ( Mercy Dagger ) ... see Stone's ... page 451. The Miseicord ( again in Europe ) was used once an opponent was down but not dead to drive thru armour into a vital spot of your opponent and thus dispatch him. The curve of the hachiwara is also an improvement in that it is curved in such a way that it follows the natural curve of the arc of the thrust ( once the opponent is prostrate ), rather than the straight vetrtical European thrust required of the straight European design.

In addition to this the curvature of the hachiwara allows in parrying to strike a blow with the least amount of contact between the area being struck ( say a wrist ) and the weapon thus directing a much STRONGER blow to a given area than a flat blade which spreads the force of the blow over a larger area but with more disapation of force. As far as the argument of hook above or hook under while in use, ... one need only look at examples of mounted hachiwara pictured to see that they were employed hook under .. Stone's ... page 273.

 

2. The Cast Iron Hachiwara of sword shape I would suggest is nothing more than a fantasy weapon dreamed up by some enterprising faker, ... this somewhat borne out by the number I see being offered on various antique weapon sites of late. I must have over the past year seen at least 6 or 7 of these being offered .... all cast iron. Who in their right mind would go into battle with that heavy clumbsy contraption slung thru the Obi ??? I think it was Keith G. that said : " In many instances we are guessing at both of these and also forgetting that some of these things may also have been made as nothing more than export items to satisfy the demands and appetites of a European market that during the Post Edo period, was insatiably fond of the exotic items of the orient." I would go much further and say " nothing more than to satisfy the appetites of modern Western Collectors " by Japanese fakers who have more interest in Currency than Culture. This I back up by pointing to the penchant for the Japanese to fake Sword Signatures with out regard for the historic nor cultural value of the swords both in the past and in the present times.

 

3. The picture posted by Eric of the Jutte having the hidden dagger .... Please note if you will the heated areas of both the shaft, and the handle ( sorry tsuka ), ........ a method of softening for the ease of drilling ??? Also note the threaded blade base ( fine thread at that ), ... something unheard of during Edo times. Again my opinion ( for what it is worth ) of this item is that it is relatively modern and designed for the unwary Western Collector. Eric said : " Not the old ''export tourist item" explanation of objects that we just do not understand again.....If they were export items I guess they did not sell very well as they are rarely seen for sale outside of Japan, almost all the ones I see are coming from Japan. " ..... The reason I believe that many of these weapons ( I use the term with a grain of salt ) are more often found in Japan than in the west as should be the case if they were made for export is that they did not even exist for the most part during even the Meiji era, .... but are an recent industry of the Japanese faker for the sole purpose of satisfying the interest in the exotic by MODERN WESTERN collectors.

 

This short, ... but somewhat unkind look at exotic weapons is NOT meant to hurt the feelings of any member nor slight any member. It is intented however to be a warning to those who would be taken in by many of the exotic weapons on offer in today's world of un-gentlemanly business.

... Ron Watson

_________________

[sanjuro]

I must agree as far as the Jitte having the hidden dagger in the shaft. It wouldnt surprise me to find it had a companion piece with a set of phillips screw drivers inside the shaft. It is clearly quite modern and a product of industrial Japan rather than post feudal Japan. The original jitte may be older but that pristine machined blade of perfect triangular section complete with fine screw thread has to be a much later addition.

 

Not to belabour Rons point but for the sake of clarity, are we then considering that the majority of these exotic club like cast iron skull mashers, with the exception of the hachiwara which does have a historical lineage and documented use, are likely to be just another version of those' secret ninja stealth BS weaponry' items that were once so popular and produced in quantity by enterprising Japanese fakers?

If so you raise an interesting and debatable point.

[estcrh]

Ron and all..If someone can not handle having their beliefs questioned then they shouldnt be on the forum. Anything said here unless there is absolute evidence or research to back it up is just personal opinion. I did not post the picture of the jutte with the blade as an antique example, sorry if I gave that impression, I was just posting it as an example....and as for cast hachiwari fakes, yes there are fake ones but that does not mean all cast hachiwari are fakes, that would be the same as saying that because some jutte are fakes that all jutte are fakes. I do not think anyone said anything about these kinds of truncheons being taken into battle. I think that people who live in an environment where they do not have to carry a weapon ever were they go have a different perspective on the subject and have more trouble understanding how important having some kind of equalizer is. I live in a VERY violent and dangerous part of the world, I own and often wear a bullet resistant vest when going out late at night, I ALWAYS carry a gun any were I go (Yes I have had to use it), even just to take the trash out, and carry a VERY large and heavy cane (club) at all times and always travel with a collapsible steel baton. I easily see how an Edo period samurai, or an average citizen would want the same protection and even into the Meiji period. Armored vests and armored clothing of all types including chain armor were common, cane swords, yari tanto, and various other small hand held weapons would give a person some peace of mind while going about their business.

 

From Stones book:

 

From Don Cunninghams Taiho-Jutsu.

 

[watsonmil]

Dear Keith G and Eric,

The majority of these newly discovered bashing weapons coming out of Japan are just that ... NEW ... . Although one can find the occassional iron or wooden club ... eg. Arms and Armour of the Samurai by Bottomley & Hopson, .... page 82 , ... they are VERY RARE and tend to be iron bars or wooden bats. They certainly DO NOT show up in Western collections formed in the late 19th century with the regularity they have been showing up post eBay in Western collections. There is and always will be a market for the exotic, ... and it is my considered opinion that that market is being well supplied from Japan. Having said that ... there were jitte or jutte or whatever multitude of names the Japanese tend to assign to everything, .... but even MOST jitte are now suspect due to this rampant forgery. It was easier years ago to have confidence in the integrity of dealers. I am happy the majority of my collection was formed pre - eBay, and certainly pre-Japanese Auction Houses ( sites ). I knew I would ruffle feathers, ... and for that I am truly sorry, ... but I tell it the way I see it.

... Ron Watson

[estcrh]

myself would double check information obtained from 'Secrets of the samurai: a survey of the martial arts of feudal Japan By Oscar Ratti, Adele Westbrook'. John

John, I do not know about the rest of the book but the quote I presented is quite accurate in general.

 

"all manner of civil strife, political intrigues, duels, (both individual and collective), assassinations, which in turn spawned a rich assortment of light armor such as the under garment of fine mail (kusari katabira) and other secret protective clothing worn under the ordinary clothing by the affiliated warrior, the samurai or the ronin. Armored sleeves derived from the traditional kote could be concealed under an overcoat, as could a light tight fitting corselet (do) to protect the back and neck, and an armored collar (nodo-wa) which covered the shoulders. Thus even in times of comparative peace, the use of armor continued to influence the various specializations of bujutsu and, in its new dimension gave a new impetus to the development of methods of close range combat such as kenjutsu and jujutsu, which had evolved from ancient methods of long range combat such as kyukutsu and yarijutsu, werein the full suit of armor or yoroi played such a significant role."

 

There was a very recent time when supposedly knowledgeable people denied that the Japanese made and used full suits of chain armor. I have found that when it comes to Japanese armor and weapons there are a lot of unknowns. Discussing both sides of an issue sometimes brings up new information. Here is a part of an often quoted article from a forum dedicated to armor etc. http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_jpn_armour.html

 

Kusari

Kusari, Japanese mail, appeared in the 14th century. It differed from European mail in both construction and use.

 

Kusari almost never existed alone. Rather, it was used to fill all the gaps between the scales on the kote and suneate, or to connect them. Usually, it was sewn to the foundation fabrics or leather, or placed between two layers. Only in few cases was the kusari used as a basic protection—such as the secondary areas of the armour or as a shikoro in some mass-produced helmets6, etc.

 

This is completely wrong and easily proven and yet it is a widely held belief. Kusari was used for all manner of armored clothing completely independent of traditional armor. The internet has brought to light a vast amount of images and information that was not available until recently. The weapons described here may just be in the same category. Overlooked while being right under everyones noses...or maybe not.

[estcrh]

I knew I would ruffle feathers, ... and for that I am truly sorry, ... but I tell it the way I see it.

... Ron Watson

 

Ron I dont see any feathers being ruffled....You have a lot of experience in the field and all opinions are welcome..at least be me. Way before ebay experienced dealers, collectors and museums have been fooled by fakes, its nothing new. I am suspicious myself of anything that can be easily duplicated and shows no sign of age, wear or unusual aging or wear, but I have also seen many of these types of items that at least to me seem genuine. I do not think that just because many people in the west have not seen an object that it has to imply that it is new and was not known before. What reason in the past would a dealer specifically look for and buy a plain iron bar weapon. Not much profit in it, the same reason that many of the lower grade armors were not seen on the market until recently. There was a time when kusari was next to impossible to find, now it is quite common, that does not mean it is being duplicated, it just means that now people have found a market for it. Just my opinion and I of course may be completely WRONG

[sanjuro]

Ron.

 

My feathers are not ruffled in the least. I welcome the opinion you gave and indeed agree with it for the most part. My comment about the point being interesting and debatable was just that..... I found it interesting and had no doubt that it would be debated. This is a good thread, and warrants discussion. All viewpoints and opinions are equally valid and in discussing them we refine our knowledge. If feathers get ruffled over a mere discussion its more a reflection on the rufflee rather than the ruffler...... Not sure that came out right, but you guys know what I mean :D

 

All of these bashing weapons (with the exception of the hachiwari and a few documented tetsubo, are basically suspect unless documented as genuine artifacts. Sadly that sort of documentation for this class of weapon is minimal. This in fact is what the fakers and makers depend upon to foist these weapons off on the market. Our gullibility lies in the lack of information and fakes can be passed off much more easily in such an environment. We can only go so far in classifying such weapons because we make the classification intellectually rather than with the help of abundant historical or literary evidence.

[watsonmil]

Guys,

Lets say the feathers I hope to have ruffled are " Japanese Feathers ", .... the fakers and dealers who have taken very rare artifacts and turned a mockery into profit to the damage of many a collection. The proliferation of this kind of activity can and will diminish not only the value of our collections, ... but the serious study of the historical artifacts of the Samurai era to the very real detriment of Japan and her history in the eyes of the world. It is too easy to blame the Chinese for the creation of fake Nihonto as an example when we see some Japanese dealers offering those very items as being genuine as well as creating like objects themselves.

... Ron Watson

[kusunokimasahige]

Of course there are a lot, if not most of them, fake hachiwari, jitte, claws and other so called "secret" weapons.

 

The word secret also is often used to get a lot of attention by either unknowing buyers, and of readers.

 

However, secret books did exist. The Bansen Shukai is an example of such a book/collection of writings :

 

http://www.ninpo.org/historicalrecords/ ... hukai.html

 

Also in Koryu styles like Tenshin Shodan Katori Shinto Ryu, several techniques exist which were a "secret" untill you were deemed ready for them. That in our era the word secret is used too many times and without due cause just to sell stuff is not ok, but one should not therefore discard every secret writing out of the Edo or earlier eras, just like one should not discount the existence of hidden and non weaponlike looking weapons in collections of that era.

 

KM

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I think that people who live in an environment where they do not have to carry a weapon ever were they go have a different perspective on the subject and have more trouble understanding how important having some kind of equalizer isI live in a VERY violent and dangerous part of the world, I own and often wear a bullet resistant vest when going out late at night, I ALWAYS carry a gun any were I go (Yes I have had to use it), even just to take the trash out, and carry a VERY large and heavy cane (club) at all times and always travel with a collapsible steel baton.

 

I wonder if this affect your judgment ability about the subject... Anyway I dont envy you, but there are thnigs we can't choose.

 

I do not know about the rest of the book but the quote I presented is quite accurate in general.

 

John is suggesting to check it with other sources, otherwise “Quiet accurate”, “in general” compared to what ? This is a completely un-academic approach to sources. The book has already been screened and doomed as c§^p. I think this apply to the part you quote too but I can be wrong. To prove me wrong, I’ll give you an hint on how an academic comparison is done : check the bibliography of Ratti’s book, put your hand on the Japanese original sources (IF ANY) talking on what of your interest, have it translated by a professional as Markus Sesko. Make out your own opinion on how the book used the original sources and how much they’re reliable. Anyway before you spend quiet some money in translations, be aware that I’ve Oscar Ratti’s book by at least 25 years and it's now rising a leg of my hobby table, with good reasons.

 

There was a very recent time when supposedly knowledgeable people denied that the Japanese made and used full suits of chain armor. I have found that when it comes to Japanese armor and weapons there are a lot of unknowns

 

You’re possibly referring to some other board, as most of us here, me included, has “The Galeno Collection” book (among others on Armor) which pics of kusari katabiriha of pages 181 and 182 I don’t post out of respect for Ian, which own the copyright, so no hot-water re-inventing here. BTW, I've been told how to create fake bullet-dents on Kabuto. Guess you get what I mean.

 

There was a time when kusari was next to impossible to find, now it is quite common, that does not mean it is being duplicated, it just means that now people have found a market for it. Just my opinion and I of course may be completely WRONG

 

The presence of such chain armors in most if not all great and ancient collections (Stibbert included) attests the market is far to be new at them (as also at fakes). Their present availability simply means they're easier to buy thru e-prey / yahoo Japan or whateveryouwant. If you mean they're new to the www (that exists by... what ? 20 years? ), that's another story.

 

The internet has brought to light a vast amount of images and information that was not available until recently. The weapons described here may just be in the same category. Overlooked while being right under everyones noses...or maybe not.

 

The images and information were available, as you've generously proved to us posting pics from books published not so recently. The *items* weren't available (to the average John Smith). And this lead us again at yahoo Japan, E-pray, Whatever. Making a comparison with swords : 70's, 80's no web commerce = genuine/fake ratio 10:1. After web commerce genuine/fake ratio 1:10. Chinese antiques even worse. Let's hope it's not the case of these items too. Your faith in the WWW is admirable, but Wikipedia hasn't a great appeal to real scholars.Wonder if these are yours and you're the wiki contributor (look déjà vu, it's your usual background, article last edited before your posts if I'm right) :

 

 

If they're indeed your contributions, I wholeheartly ask you for the sake of the community to avoid to add this one until you're *very* sure it's not a fake.

 

[estcrh]

Sometime things are right under your nose. From Stones book. Look at #4 #9 and #11

 

#4:All solid iron,shaped like a mounted sword with a broad belt hook on back.

#9:Made and mounted like a sword but it has a curved iron bar.

#11:Three jointed iron. The lower joints slide back into the handle end or can be thrown out with a jerk. Length closed 6.5 inches, open 18. (this is exactly like the modern collapsible baton I carry!!!)

[estcrh]

If they're indeed your contributions, I wholeheartly ask you for the sake of the community to avoid to add this one until you're *very* sure it's not a fake.

 

Your concern for the "community" is admirable . Arn't you lowering your high standards by slumming in Wikipedi? Are you suggesting that people should not contribute or improve to existing Wikipedia articles or contribute images to articles? And in what manner is this jutte a fake? It is a jutte with a hidden spear or point. Is it being described in an inaccurate manner?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

#4:All solid iron,shaped like a mounted sword with a broad belt hook on back.

 

Has same and wrapping. Broad belt hook likely to parry no present on the specimen you posted.

 

#9:Made and mounted like a sword but it has a curved iron bar.

 

Katana lenght ? A Samurai would have carried a sharpened one, a commoner would have been not allowed to carry what at the eye of the police seems a Katana. EDIT it's wakizashi length accordingly to the description. Seemed very long and slim, if we take the tsuka as comparison might be the length quoted is wrong.

 

#11:Three jointed iron. The lower joints slide back into the handle end or can be thrown out with a jerk. Length closed 6.5 inches, open 18. (this is exactly like the modern collapsible baton I carry

 

Wow. Copyright infringement occurred somewhere...

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Your concern for the "community" is admirable . Arn't you lowering your high standards by slumming in Wikipedi? Are you suggesting that people should not contribute or improve to existing Wikipedia articles or contribute images to articles? And in what manner is this jutte a fake? It is a jutte with a hidden spear or point. Is it being described in an inaccurate manner?

 

Noooooo. It's perfectly fine to me and I *really* hoped they were your contribution claiming to be proud of them.

[estcrh]

From Stones book:

A much rarer form is shaped like a mounted sword which has an iron club in place of a blade and scabbard.

[estcrh]

 

Noooooo. It's perfectly fine to me and I *really* hoped they were your contribution claiming to be proud of them.

And what is it exactly that you contribute?? Please remind me again.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

#4:All solid iron,shaped like a mounted sword with a broad belt hook on back.

 

Maybe it's the pic but I really can't see the hook making it resembling an hachiwari. I was under the impression you were referring to the item that started this thread.

 

[estcrh]

You’re possibly referring to some other board, as most of us here, me included, has “The Galeno Collection” book (among others on Armor) which pics of kusari katabiriha of pages 181 and 182 I don’t post out of respect for Ian, which own the copyright, so no hot-water re-inventing here. BTW, I've been told how to create fake bullet-dents on Kabuto. Guess you get what I mean.

 

No one but you knows what you mean Carlo. Ians book "Arms and Armor of the Samurai has pictures of kusari katabira, the one on page 155 is one of the finest examples I know of. Ian is one of the few authors to show any pictures of this stye of armor.

[Brian]

Just give it a rest!

If you people spent as much time discussing real stuff as you do trying to pick each other apart, the Nihonto community woul be very well off.

What exactly is the point of going over and over items that cannot ultimately be proven one way or another? The points have been made, now give it a rest.

Pity..even with the slight bickering, this thread was really educational. Do I have to lock this one now and spoil it for everyone?

 

Brian