Tekkan or tetsuken with kurikata

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

You can read the chapter on these types of weapons here> http://books.google.com/books?id=ZzIXkF ... no&f=false

 

This books describes Tetsuto as either simpler (straight) than the posted example or as having a wooden scabbard if intended to fool (curved), differently from the specimen posted here. A mount is quite understandable also under a practical point of view as this would be a much lighter weapon with the same effectiveness. Why to produce a wakizashi-like tetsuto (looks too long to be a naeshi) as big as a complete mount, completely of solid iron ? Much heavier to carry, not as fooling as one with a wooden scabbard, likely more clumsy due to weight.

 

Any opinion on this ?

 

Would you kindly post the figure 3-5 showing the Tanto-like tetsuto with scabbard from the

original of the book you own ? It's omitted in the web free version.

[kusunokimasahige]

To be honest Carlo, i think that a fast swing from your obi with one of these wakizashi size items would be as deadly as a cut.

 

Also, the obi will take off a lot of the weight, since the weapon rests on it.

 

KM

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

To be honest Carlo, i think that a fast swing from your obi with one of these wakizashi size items would be as deadly as a cut.

 

Also, the obi will take off a lot of the weight, since the weapon rests on it.

 

KM

 

mmmm... Fast and Heavy rarely go together and the Obi is still carried by you.

[estcrh]

Would you kindly post the figure 3-5 showing the Tanto-like tetsuto with scabbard from the

original of the book you own ? It's omitted in the web free version.

I will have to find it...meanwhile check this out....real or one of those made up tourist items?

 

http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/zz23 ... ?start=all

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

It's a kabutowari IMHO, NOT a tetsuto. Check what's under the tsuba.

But photobucket is under maintenance right now. Can't check the other pics.

 

Anyway seems not related to my questions on the item in topic.

 

I will have to find it

 

Thanks, I'll wait.

[estcrh]

They are all the same thing, iron bar weapons, different names and shapes,

same purpose.

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

They are all the same thing, iron bar weapons, different names and shapes,

same purpose.

 

 

Not accordingly to the source you've linked, especially as concern the people they were intended for and the use. Hachiwari strikes with the INWARD of the curvature mainly against kabuto (but not only), tetsubo (when curved) the other way around,never intended for battlefield. The hachiwari hook is a very useful plus when used against armored opponent to pull the kabuto off the head of the enemy .

Hachiwari was born for samurai and continued mainly for them, tetsubo are for commoners.

[estcrh]

There are two types of hachiwari, a dirk type and the iron bar type, completely different weapons, also there are several different interpretations as to their use and even the meaning of the name, its important to read several sources.

 

 

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

There are two types of hachiwari, a dirk type and the iron bar type, completely different weapons, also there are several different interpretations as to their use and even the meaning of the name, its important to read several sources.

 

 

 

 

Sorry but I can't see any reference to Hachiwari in the page you posts that BTW is the same I was quoting not a different one. It's simply mentioned it's a different item more known in the west. Thanks for the pic of a tetsuto with scabbard I've asked. Differnt from the item in topic.

Which are the other sources you are referring to that shold be read explaining Hachiwari and tetsuto are the vey same thing ? Discussion is steering a little away from the original item don't you think ?

[estcrh]

From Don cunningham, note the different terms used for the same iron sword described by Serge Mol. Cunningham calls them tekkan or tetsu-ken.

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Eric, it says that iron sword used in Edo *similar* to Hachiwari were referred to as tetsuto, NOT that they were the same item nor their use was the same.

 

BTW looks like yet again the same book, not a different source.

[estcrh]

Eric, it says that iron sword used in Edo *similar* to Hachiwari were referred to as tetsuto, NOT that they were the same item nor their use was the same.

 

BTW looks like yet again the same book, not a different source.

It clearly says in Don Cunninghams book "Iron swords similar in shape to the hachiwari carried during the Edo period were also called tetsu-ken or tekkan''. Here is some info from his other book.

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Methink that if there already is a proper therm for an item that's should be its name.

Seems the authors are stretching the matter a little too far unless cause the lack of

kabuto to be broken they assume the item had no more to be called "helmet breaker"

even still maintaining the original shape.

 

A naginata made in Kamakura and one made in Edo still are both naginata, even if their

target changed.

 

BTW the lower one is Meiji and bronze. Maybe they published a tourist item ?

[estcrh]

Methink that if there already is a proper therm for an item that's should be its name.

Seems the authors are stretching the matter a little too far unless cause the lack of

kabuto to be broken they assume the item had no more to be called "helmet breaker"

even still maintaining the original shape.

 

A naginata made in Kamakura and one made in Edo still are both naginata, even if their

target changed.

 

BTW the lower one is Meiji and bronze. Maybe they published a tourist item ?

 

No one ever broke any kabuto with these types of weapons, bones yes, kabuto no way. With swords being banned during the Meiji period weapons like this would have been popular I would imagine. The difference in terms used does not change the fact that there were a very large variety of these iron bar weapons "uchimomo" to choose from. Im sure there are some unanswered questions about who exactly carried and used which type etc. There was also the Edo period lower level non samurai police to consider, not being officially able to own a jutte these types of weapons could have been used instead. Also during the Meiji period while the samurai class was disbanded the police force was not, and they would have used some kind of weapon. One more interesting passage from Don Cunningham.

 

 

[kusunokimasahige]

The use of the kabutowari is not to break the helmet but to rip off maedate and shikoro.

 

Also denting the kabuto, especially when you know the padding was not that thick, could render a samurai unconscious. eboshi or other caps under the helmet or not.

 

Just like the mangled pole arms which would shred through sode, the kabutowari was a fierce though crude weapon.

 

KM

[estcrh]

Here is the dirk type of hachiwari, could you see anyone breaking a kabuto with this? It is more of a stabbing weapon, used for getting between gaps on armor when fighting hand to hand or grappling.

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

No one ever broke any kabuto with these types of weapons, bones yes, kabuto no way.

 

Of course, differently from what generally assumed from the name Hachiwari, they weren't supposed to break kabuto but knock-out the opponent hitting him on the armored head or even break his neck, other than of course to be used as a proto-jutte and bone-breaker.

Still related to armored opponent. Why the hell you are supposing I meant break an helmet ?

 

The difference in terms used does not change the fact that there were a very large variety of these iron bar weapons "uchimomo" to choose from.

 

I tend to give quite some importance to proper therms and definitively doesn't convince me

the mentioned source quoting both hachiwari and tetsuto were the same item.

Same *use* in edo, possibly, but not the same item. A Katana and a wakizashi are simialr and used the same way but they'r not the same thing.

 

As per the need of using different sources I agree but you should also focus on the quality of them, not the quantity. Everybody can makes mistakes or can use improper therms.

 

We're now very far from the topic's original item

[estcrh]

Look at this zunari kabuto, it took bullets to every panel with just a dent, a hachiwari would not do much to it. I think people have taken the name to literally or misinterpreted the name.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Here is the dirk type of hachiwari, could you see anyone breaking a kabuto with this? It is more of a stabbing weapon, used for getting between gaps on armor when fighting hand to hand or grappling.

 

 

Bet it's Edo hence not suited to sustain your argument of being unable to break kabuto.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Look at this zunari kabuto, it took bullets to every panel with just a dent, a hachiwari would not do much to it. I think people have taken the name to literally or misinterpreted the name.

 

 

Methink we posted at the same time and you missed a line of mine.

[estcrh]

.

 

We're now very far from the topic's original item

Not really, its fairly obvious that the iron bar weapon that has the same shape as a hachiwari is in fact not actually a hachiwari. It is just another uchimono, an object to hit with, and much closer to being a (pick a name) Tekkan, tetsu-ken, tetsuto. Just having a similar shape does not make it one. I tihink that Don Cunninghan showed that by comparing the two together.

[estcrh]

 

 

Methink we posted at the same time and you missed a line of mine.

More for kusunokimasahige actually.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Just having a similar shape does not make it one.

 

Same shape and use, according to you. They are from the same *group* of weapons,

still they *aren't the same*.

 

I tihink that Don Cunninghan showed that by comparing the two together.

 

You refer to the pic with the (most likely) tourist bronze Meiji item ? Definitively disagree.

 

Hence because I said we're going far from the topic item.

[Guido]

鉢 (hachi) can mean pot or bowl, and therefore is also used for the bowl of a helmet. But it also means scull or brainpan. I always assumed that helmet breaker for Hachiwari is one of those Western misnomers, like "battle wrap" for Katatemaki (single hand wrap) and so on. IMO Hachiwari therefore means "skull splitter" and not "helmet breaker" ("breaker" would be a wrong translation anyhow).

 

But I totally missed this very obvious explanation:

The use of the kabutowari is not to break the helmet but to rip off maedate and shikoro.

Right. Ripping off the Maedate with a specialized tool - especially if combined with a blow dart to pierce the Fukigaeshi - would be an unbearable insult, leading to a brain hemorrhage which brought instant death to the opponent. What a deadly attack!

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

More for kusunokimasahige actually.

 

Right, the confusion is my fault cause :

 

the lack of kabuto to be broken

 

should have been worded differently, with "hit" instead of "broken". My point was they were

orginally intended against armored opponent, disappeared in Edo :

 

Hachiwari strikes with the INWARD of the curvature mainly against kabuto (but not only), .

 

So the really unnecessary

 

Why the hell you are supposing I meant break an helmet ?

 

Apologize.

 

Of course all the other my points remains.

[Toryu2020]

Guido is correct,

Hachi in this case means the top of the head and Kabuto-wari (Helmet breaker) sounds so much cooler than Boshi-wari (Bowler buster). I wonder if anyone has seen illustrations of these weapons in use from prior to 1600? I am also dubious of the reverse curve explanation, a big bottle opener you say? I cannot agree. Are these not all oriented with the curve uppermost in the belt? In that case, once drawn you would be using the curved outside edge just as you would with a sword.

 

Great stuff BTW, very interesting thread...

-t

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I am also dubious of the reverse curve explanation,

 

The placement of the blade stopper (bottle opener) suggests the use in a reverse way.

[kusunokimasahige]

@ Guido: yes, a lot of skulls which were found on Japanese battlefields showed hemmoraging of the type you mentioned.. of course not...

 

What i actually meant was that the wari could be used to damage a helmet in such a way that it would leave the owner incapacitated and or less protected. Same as the use of the Sode Garami pole weapon and other types which were used to entangle sleeves as well as sode shoulder guards. There are contemporary images of the use of pitchfork type weapons to pull a samurai off his horse.

 

@ estrch : Thank you for that Zunari photo ! i know now where the dent in the helmet i own might have come from, though it is on the top right corner of the back plate.

 

KM

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

@ Thomas,

 

Now that I'm back home I'd like to add another feature that might suggest the use of "reverse" grip for Hachiwari. Please allow for a moment their existance before 1600.

They're all invariably curved and most quite much curved toward the point. They tapers a lot also. Considering their shape, in the case you're too close to the enemy to use it as a club

which grip would you feel more comfortable with when trying to push the "kissaki" into your opponent's armor weakest point (the eyes) ? Due to the steep curvature the regular one force

you to rise the arm and expose your armpit, the "reverse" one allow you to enter your enemy's skull easier.

 

Can't see the need of many of Hachiwari's features in Edo other than copying the old specimens (if effectively they are ancient items, you can suggest). As said many other items performed similarly against unarmoured (or chainmailed) opponents so why to produce then with this sugata ? These items are not the same thing IMHO.

[estcrh]

should have been worded differently, with "hit" instead of "broken". My point was they were

orginally intended against armored opponent, disappeared in Edo :

 

.

 

Armored opponents did not disappear in the Edo period, the armor just changed. If you look carefully at period prints you will see very many showing armored clothing being worn. You can see it being worn under the kimono at the neck, wrist and legs.

 

Portable lightweight armors of all kinds were manufactured and worn. Yes its true that heavy traditional armor was not needed or necessary for the most part and as such the weapons needed and carried changed also. Head protection was light weight and could be carried and put on when needed. Even in older period prints you will not see armor being worn on a daily basis, it was just to heavy and uncomfortable.

 

This type of armor came in many styles and shapes. Kikko, karuta and kusari armors were worn by high and low status samurai, remember that Japan was still a nation were every adult male samurai was armed while in public right up until the samurai class was dissolved in the 1870s. In "Secrets of the samurai: a survey of the martial arts of feudal Japan By Oscar Ratti, Adele Westbrook http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFf...kigomi&f=false the necessity of the continuation of the use of armor in the 200+yr Edo period as being common and a necessity is throughly discussed>>>>

 

"all manner of civil strife, political intrigues, duels, (both individual and collective), assassinations, which in turn spawned a rich assortment of light armor such as the under garment of fine mail (kusari katabira) and other secret protective clothing worn under the ordinary clothing by the affiliated warrior, the samurai or the ronin. Armored sleeves derived from the traditional kote could be concealed under an overcoat, as could a light tight fitting corselet (do) to protect the back and neck, and an armored collar (nodo-wa) which covered the shoulders. Thus even in times of comparative peace, the use of armor continued to influence the various specializations of bujutsu and, in its new dimension gave a new impetus to the development of methods of close range combat such as kenjutsu and jujutsu, which had evolved from ancient methods of long range combat such as kyukutsu and yarijutsu, werein the full suit of armor or yoroi played such a significant role."

 

I added this link to a previous forum post showing some Japanese armored clothing.

 

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