Photos of a study piece

[kusunokimasahige]

Hello all.

 

I have a question on Utsuri,

 

Because Utsuri is not apparent in all swords, is it seen as extra proof of quality ? extra esthetic value ?

Or is it seen as something else, since i do not understand very well the term used by the "sisters" stating it is proof of sensitive steel.

 

KM

[Jean]

But to state that all utsuri should reach up to the shinogi.

 

It is the opposite Veli, it does not reach up to the shinogi, it starts from the shinogi.

 

 

Here is an article written by Ted Tenold on utsuri :

 

The Utsuri can be Nioi based, or Nie based, but both have the concentration extending from the shinogi toward the yakiba, with an identifiable belt region between

 

http://www.una.edu/faculty/takeuchi/DrT ... ri_Ted.htm

 

Considering futatsuji bi, Hidemitsu is not an Omiya smith, but I am sure there are some of these horimono in Bizen mono but they are far from frequent.

[cabowen]

It is a complex metallurgical phenomenon that only occurs when several variables, both process and material, all "line up" within a narrow range of values. It can happen by accident, though some smiths have been able to produce it consistently and thus show great control and consistency in their heat treating. Being able to produce it consistently is thus an indicator of a high level of skill. It also has come to be appreciated for the beauty it adds....I should add that in an off itself it does not make a blade "better" than one without, unless perhaps the smith is known to produce it consistently and it is lacking when it should not be....

[paulb]

Just to pick up on another point in an earlier mail. It seems to be suggested that shirrake utsuri might appear as a sword is worn down or over polished/ I would value some comments on this because I think it is wrong.

As Chris, Ted and others have said utsuri is nioi based surface effect created by various elements of the process coming together at the right srage. Shirrake utsuri is more random than either midare, or bo utsuri and there is a school of thought that regard it as accidental rather than contrived.

If this is the case polishing a blade down will eliminate utsuri, shirrake or otherwise, not make it appear.

It is possible that polishing may cause a cloudy effect in the steel as softer core matrial starts rto show through, however this should not be considered or described as utsuri.

Could others confirm or correct this?

regards

Paul

[cabowen]

there are several observable effects with the utsuri suffix- there is basic terms related to formation: nioi utsuri, nie utsuri, shirake utsuri (seen mostly in Mino school blades and is more a shapeless mist like effect); terms related to shape: midare utsuri, bo utsuri, etc....Then there is tsukare utsuri, which is an effect that resembles utsuri but is in fact the result of overpolishing and a big negative.....

[Curran]

Most of my bizen sword books are put away pending a move of about 1200 miles. Wish I could consult them now, as I don't remember much about Hidemitsu and how the line fell out relative to others. Thinking about original shape, this was probably a monster. Reminds me of the Tomomitsu monster blades. Gut feeling is Veli is right about the age.

 

Chris, John, Jean and others with their books feel free to correct me here. Also, if this thread is forwarded to Ted Tenold- he can best club it, "like a baby seal".

 

Utsuri is wierd. The jigane also has a loose sloppy feel that sometimes seems to appear in that vague area of Soden <-> kozori smiths. A large blade shortened and extensively polished? Veli can observe how much it looks polished down from original indications. Most of the good earlier Oei Bizen blades can withstand being polished as thin as a pen-knife without showing an unraveling of jigane like this. Polish looks 'middle of the road' and not ideal for this sort of blade.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

An interesting blade in terms of size, shape, and origin,- but Veli said it was the price of the polish of two daito.

For a study piece, there are a few o-tanto or good sized Oei Bizen "wakizashi" in Japan or stateside with Hozon or better papers at the price of polish of 1 daito. For the price of 2 to 3 daito polish, some very good pieces are available. Got privately offered a signed Oei Bizen o-tanto with Toku Hozon at the Tampa show, and had to remind myself I am only collecting fittings until we determine where we are going to live long term.

 

US$ being as weak as it is currently, I regret not ex-patrioting to Hong Kong or Switzerland when offered the chance in 2001.

Now every time I decide to sell a tsuba or help place a fitting, it either goes East to Europe, or far West towards Asia.

Gotten so that I know the international customs codes by heart.

[cabowen]

Chris, John, Jean and others with their books feel free to correct me here.

 

Wish my books were indeed available but they have all been in storage the past 6 years while I work on this:

 

 

 

 

Hopefully they will be unpacked this year! Good luck with your move....

 

Utsuri is by its nature a bit elusive. The literature is fairly clear on the changes in the location and shape of utsuri in Bizen blades and how these changes relate to the time of production. Hard to say much on a particular blade from pictures....

[John A Stuart]

Nice bright, aerie, house Chris, top of the hill just about , no worries from slides, eh? Curran, I have the book and will get the pic done as soon as able. Speaking of scans etc., we really need some comprehensive pics of this sword. Agreed, this when ubu would have been a biggun, of course, this period did have them. John

[cabowen]

Thanks for the kind words...Yes, on a ledge halfway up a hill, overlooking a small creek and waterfall 50 feet below....Hill behind isn't so steep that we have had any issues with slides (fingers crossed!)....

 

Agreed that better pictures would help but I think the owner has the best chance of accurately dating this....Still an interesting and informative exercise...

[Jean]

Utsuri is wierd. The jigane also has a loose sloppy feel that sometimes seems to appear in that vague area of Soden kozori smiths.

 

Yes, this sword is odd, that's all one can say.

 

I had a private talk with Ted. He thinks that due to poor polish, utsuri can disappear at the level of shinogi ... I don't go for shirake utsuri, this one is too striking, that's why this blade is odd :

 

- odd utsuri

- odd hada

- odd horimono

 

and it looks very Bizen ... perhaps "canada dry"

[Curran]

I think the horimono are fine.

 

I forget the correct term for these long sharp ended "gombashi" like hormono. My Nobukuni has them and I've seen them on a number of blades from the period. The horimono look old to me and the way they taper off where the blade has been o-suriaged, looks correct to me.

[Jean]

Hi Curran,

 

Futatsuji, that is their name.

 

I have never said that there were not Ok. I just said weird because that you hardly find them on Bizen work, some on Chogi or Omiya but not in kozori. It is very unfrequent as it is mainly from Soshu..

[reinhard]

Veli,

All I can say on the basis of your pics is: This is a very interesting sword. Have it checked carefully by a reliable expert IN HAND. Shape, condition and surface details look interesting. Forget about the utsuri-discussion so far. Some statements were accurate and others were just half digested theories. Utsuri is one of the most complex and demanding features of NihonTo. It cannot be appreciated or even understood on the basis of pictures; and BTW: utsuri is still just one feature among many others.

Many people start focussing on Bizen province immediately when hearing of utsuri. That's the first mistake. Many people have theoretical ideas about utsuri without knowing real examples. That's the second mistake. Some people are seeing utsuri where there is none. That's the third mistake. Some people can't see utsuri even if it's just in front of their eyes. That's the fourth mistake.

 

I can't tell you for sure, if there's utsuri on your blade or not, but there are many other features worth looking at.

 

For the utsuri-afficionados out there: Here's a sample of a blade by Ichimonji SANETOSHI (Bizen province). Utsuri is highly irregular. It looks as if this kind of utsuri correlates to the one of Aya-no-Koji SADATOSHI (Yamashiro province). Extensive studies have been made. Ever heard of them?

 

reinhard

[John A Stuart]

Hi Reinhard, You're right about your points, however, the old papers lead the way to Bizen unless we just ignore them, which I am loathe to totally dismiss unless proven otherwise. Many schools had utsuri as a feature, so, not neccessarily Bizen, if we ignore the origami. Ayakoji Sadatoshi is originally Rai school, isn't he? Anyhow, I had thought him noted for tobiyaki not utsuri. It is good not to be too rigid in thinking, though. John

[reinhard]

It is good not to be too rigid in thinking, though. John

 

It would take us more than one bottle of Whiskey to talk this over.

 

reinhard

[John A Stuart]

A capital idea!! It is too bad I am so far from being able to bring my collection of single malts to create free flowing thought from free flowing ambrosia. John

[Guido]

Futatsuji, that is their name.

A common mistake in terminology: not futatsu-ji but futa-suji (二筋).

[cabowen]

A common mistake in terminology: not futatsu-ji but futa-suji (二筋).

 

 

And, to be complete, the correct term is futasuji-bi......

[Curran]

Gents:

 

Chris, I enjoy seeing the photos of the house as it has progressed.

 

Reinhard, I regard myself as only half qualified to discuss the blade if it is Bizen or near Bizen. If it is not, I will shut up and wait to learn.

However, if I may stand on my ant hill and declare myself king of the world, it would be to correct you the one time I will probably ever correct you......

.....that is you want the Whisky, not the whiskey.

Geez. What good are you if your mastery of the language is only 99.99999999999999999999999% perfect?

 

John: http://www.lfw.co.uk/

The storefront is smaller than Aoi Arts shop. When I first wandered into this place 9 years ago, I quickly realized it wasn't the tourist shop I was expecting. It feels wrong to imbibe it here in our tropical region, therefore I have had only a glass or two in years. This may change with upcoming move.

 

Okay, back to the Study Sword...

anyone able to advance the discussion more?

[Veli]

Gentlemen,

 

I do not mean to propose ending the discussion (whether concerning nihon-to, whiskey or nice building projects ), but I think it is time to express my gratitude to all of you who took part in this discussion. The comments, especially the critical ones, forced me to look for essential information I otherwise would have omitted.

 

I could post better pictures, but that would mean flooding the forum with a dozen of 1 Mb files, yet the information would still be insufficient. If there will be a shinsa in Europe next year, I'll bring this one (and several other blades) in. If not, I'll probably have to endure the hassle with the customs and visit the U.S. I do not expect this to be any kind of a treasure, but it is a blade with distinct and unique features, and I shall be happy to pay a couple of hundred € for expert opinion, just to learn.

 

The date of the paper, Showa 48 nen 3 gatsu, coincide with the period when NBTHK had suspended shinsa at local branches (ref. Nihontocraft website). I guess this is a positive, though not a decisive, factor in terms of reliability of the papers.

 

In any case:

 

BR, Veli

[cabowen]

Thanks for sharing something interesting....

 

If you would like to send to the US for the October shinsa, please email me.....

[Jamie]

Thanks for sharing Veli.

I learn tons from threads like this one, and I truly appreciate it.

[Jean]

Hi Veli,

 

Very interesting and a good sword. If you go to shinsa, it would be interesting to have from the judges, explanation about the "utsuri".

[sencho]

.....that is you want the Whisky, not the whiskey.

Geez. What good are you if your mastery of the language is only 99.99999999999999999999999% perfect?

 

 

sorry Curran...

 

Reinhard can describe the "water of life" as Whiskey or Whisky .... both perfectly acceptable....

 

......just depends what type of skirt you originally wore!

 

Cheers