Mark Green Posted February 12, 2011 Report Posted February 12, 2011 ??????????? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... ink:top:en Quote
cabowen Posted February 12, 2011 Report Posted February 12, 2011 looks like what is known as a Satsuma-age.... Quote
sanjuro Posted February 12, 2011 Report Posted February 12, 2011 OK.... I'll play. What is it? I've never seen anything like it and the sellers description seems to be more hype than anything else. Although he might be right about its rarity. It is rather a strange adaptation of something..... But what exactly????????? Quote
Veli Posted February 12, 2011 Report Posted February 12, 2011 I guess Chris is right... http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/suriage.html (scroll to the bottom of the page) It is difficult to imagine a smith deliberately producing such a strange shape. BR, Veli Quote
mizuta Posted February 12, 2011 Report Posted February 12, 2011 Satsuma-age had not seen that before I thought a sword would be no good after loseing its kissaki? Bernard Quote
cabowen Posted February 12, 2011 Report Posted February 12, 2011 Satsuma-age had not seen that before I thought a sword would be no good after loseing its kissaki?Bernard you thought right...... Quote
sanjuro Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 So correct me if I am wrong here, but we are looking at a blade that having been broken has been fundamentally stripped of its artistic merit, reshaped so as to provide an artificial kissaki in order to equip a low level warrior or supporter of the rebellion with something sharp and pointy to use as a weapon. (In effect a rather sadly ruined ex nihonto). In reality this is little better than a machette made of tamahagane. One wonders at the collectability of such a thing unless it has some historical significance as an artifact....... I'm not turning my nose up at this er..... relic, just questioning its validity as a collectable piece. God knows there is a collector for every piece.....No doubt someone will buy and treasure it because of some collecting specialisation. Quote
sanjuro Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 What a nicely pixellated Photograph!!!!! Whats the point you are making Reinhard? Its signed? Well yes it is..... so are many gimei blades that are at least intact. Assuming that it is a genuine signature, then the sword it is attached to is no longer a representative work of the smith. On what basis then is this curiosity considered collectable? Hence my original question. I'm not trying to be a smart ass... I really would like to know. Quote
cabowen Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 I think he is pointing out that the mei is bogus, as in Chinese or the like....and thus the package is crap from the start.... Quote
sanjuro Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Thanks Chris. I must be having one of those obtuse days. I started out thinking this was a load of rubbish and possibly a fake, but was giving it the benefit of at least that particular doubt, since its getting harder to pick them these days. I should have trusted my first instincts. OK, I'm happy now :D Quote
cabowen Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 I think it is a good example of Satsuma-age so for that reason something can be learned here....It was probably broken cutting something and reshaped...If it was originally made like this, it still shows what a Satsuma-age would look like... Quote
sanjuro Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Which begs the question was satsuma-age a common practice at some time? Quote
Toryu2020 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Keith et al - Satsuma-age was not a practice from the rebellion, rather Satsuma was a place where the population had a greater proportion of Buke than in other Han. This created a great deal of hardship on the members of the class, farming and other labor forbidden to samurai in other han was authorized even encouraged in Satsuma. Since it was poor farmland to begin with the average income was quite modest compared to other places. In addition there was long standing disdain for outsiders especially those associated with the Tokugawa regime. This fostered a very different kind of culture and aesthetic than was found in the capitols of other han. Here the attitude was one of pure machismo the sword as pure weapon absent all but the simplest adornment, "not like those nancy boys in Edo" you could almost hear them saying. The practice of Satsuma-age comes from this attitude and the stingy economy under which the Satsuma Samurai had to live. There have been good blades with well known signatures that have been reshaped in this way but they are indeed... http://www.bidders.co.jp/aitem/142223961 -t Quote
gtstcactus Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Keith et al -Satsuma-age was not a practice from the rebellion, rather Satsuma was a place where the population had a greater proportion of Buke than in other Han. This created a great deal of hardship on the members of the class, farming and other labor forbidden to samurai in other han was authorized even encouraged in Satsuma. Since it was poor farmland to begin with the average income was quite modest compared to other places. In addition there was long standing disdain for outsiders especially those associated with the Tokugawa regime. This fostered a very different kind of culture and aesthetic than was found in the capitols of other han. Here the attitude was one of pure machismo the sword as pure weapon absent all but the simplest adornment, "not like those nancy boys in Edo" you could almost hear them saying. The practice of Satsuma-age comes from this attitude and the stingy economy under which the Satsuma Samurai had to live. There have been good blades with well known signatures that have been reshaped in this way but they are indeed... http://www.bidders.co.jp/aitem/142223961 -t Thanks for that explanation of "satsuma-age" works. Since posting my own pics of the wakizashi I have and being told it was "satsuma" I've been reading about it.... I don't think I quite understood, but your explanation makes it pretty simple... Quote
sanjuro Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Thomas. Thanks for that run down. I knew about the over abundance of samurai in Satsuma but would never have made the connections that you have clarified. One is always learning and you have contributed to my nihonto education. Thats what I love about the NMB... We share our knowledge, and with each sharing we all become wiser Quote
Toryu2020 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 You are all indeed welcome, No matter the area of interest in this field one cannot know it all, though I apologise if I sound like that some times. The rabbit holes are so deep you can never exhaust your thirst for knowledge, for my part I learn something new everyday here, I had wanted to say "indeed RARE" in my first post but dropped it somehow. -t (for tom) Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 farming and other labor forbidden to samurai in other han was authorized even encouraged in Satsuma. Thomas, interesting indeed, considering the importance of Satsuma samurai in later Japanese history. I'm going to ask Samurai Archives for more. Thanks for the hint. Quote
reinhard Posted February 15, 2011 Report Posted February 15, 2011 It's just a notion, but these two kanji are reminding me of a fake "Masamune"-mei turned into something less decipherable and a fraud less easy to detect. reinhard Quote
Nobody Posted February 15, 2011 Report Posted February 15, 2011 I am unsure about the mei, especially the last two characters. But the mei looks like 正四位常政. 正四位 (Sho-shi-i) - A rank under Ritsuryo system 常政??? (Tsunemasa???) Quote
Nobody Posted February 15, 2011 Report Posted February 15, 2011 .......................... The practice of Satsuma-age comes from this attitude and the stingy economy under which the Satsuma Samurai had to live. ................ As far as I know, Satsuma-age in this usage is only a double-entendre pun, which actually means Suri-age. Suri-age (磨上) - Shortening = Suru (磨る: grind) and Ageru (上げる: move up) ↓(pun) Suru (擂る: mash) and Ageru (揚げる: deep-fry) = Satsuma-age (薩摩揚げ: a deep-fried cake of ground fish, Ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satsuma_age ） Then, a shortening from its tip is called as Satsuma-age as a wordplay. Quote
cabowen Posted February 15, 2011 Report Posted February 15, 2011 I too have been told that Satsuma-age is a pun. But it always refers to cutting the end of the sword, not regular suriage from the nakago, so perhaps there is more to it.... I have also been told that it is a bit derogatory- that Satsuma was considered rural and unsophisticated and cutting the end of the sword off is considered something only done by rubes.... Quote
drbvac Posted February 15, 2011 Report Posted February 15, 2011 Thank GOD - I am not a rube -even if I was to shorten a blade I would start at the dull end Quote
reinhard Posted February 16, 2011 Report Posted February 16, 2011 I am unsure about the mei, especially the last two characters. But the mei looks like 正四位常政. 正四位 (Sho-shi-i) - A rank under Ritsuryo system 常政??? (Tsunemasa???) Dear Moriyama-san, It's good to see you still believing in the good of men, but this time you are stretching freedom of interpretation a little too far, I'm afraid. There is no TSUNEMASA to be found in reliable compilations of kaji anywhere, not to speak of one using this particular title/rank. The way these kanji are chiselled are way beyond of what could be excused by "illiterate", "rural", "ignorant" or whatever. It's just a fake signature. Added is a pic illustrating why I think there is another (fake) mei underlying. reinhard Quote
Nobody Posted February 16, 2011 Report Posted February 16, 2011 I never said that the mei is genuine. But I just do not think that the part of the mei is Masamune, regardless of its genuineness. Quote
reinhard Posted February 16, 2011 Report Posted February 16, 2011 I just do not think that the part of the mei is Masamune, regardless of its genuineness. Like I said. It is just a notion. reinhard Quote
Surfson Posted February 16, 2011 Report Posted February 16, 2011 Moriyama San, thanks for sharing the wonderful story about the pun! Quote
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