edge hardness?

[Birdman]

Were all nihonto made with glass-hard edges? Or were some softer than others? I managed to scrub most of the rust off the blade of my Edo-period wakizashi with oil and a brass bristle brush - it came off pretty easily (maybe just dirt, not rust?). What is left is tightly adhering surface rust. I can see a hamon, but the chips in the edge seem to have been cut into the edge with another blade, with metal being burred rather than broken off. None of the nicks extends to the top of the hamon, so this sword could likely be repolished. It is definitely a folded blade, as I can see grain structure where the crud came off leaving smooth metal.

 

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/DutchmanDick/arms%20and%20armor/DSC01932.jpg

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/DutchmanDick/arms%20and%20armor/DSC01931.jpg

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/DutchmanDick/arms%20and%20armor/DSC01934.jpg

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/DutchmanDick/arms%20and%20armor/DSC01933.jpg

 

Also, any thoughts as to the age of this sword and what school it likely came from? It is mumei, by the way, and my first nihonto. Blade length is 14.7". Mune is narrow, with a high shinogi. Something of a diamond cross-section (not sure of the correct terminology). The mune widens out where it meets the shinogi at the tip.

[Doug]

Rich,

 

You describe this as an Edo-period wakizashi but I dont know if that is necessarily true. It's shape may indicate a koto period nagamaki-naoshi. This would mean it was cut down (from bottom up) and its nakago reshaped to fit in a conventional handle. I remember your other pic of this sword with the habaki slid down and that the hamachi and munemachi were uneven indicating further this might not be the original shape. Take the habaki off and angling at the light seen if the hamon curves to an end at the hamachi or disappears into the nakago (this may be hard to see).

Swords were made in later periods to re-create this shape and without an experienced person looking at the blade in hand it is very much speculation. So all that said, go easy with the brass brush and cleaning efforts as tempting and benign as they may seem. Actions taken now that seem to be making no difference now can have larger impact at finer stages of polishing. I think there may be some nice things in this sword so get it to your polisher and let them get started so you can have it back sooner and start REALLY enjoying it. Polish may help you answer your questions regarding age and school that are just too hard to ascertain from the condition state and photos. Best of luck!

[Birdman]

Rich,

 

You describe this as an Edo-period wakizashi but I dont know if that is necessarily true. It's shape may indicate a koto period nagamaki-naoshi. This would mean it was cut down (from bottom up) and its nakago reshaped to fit in a conventional handle. I remember your other pic of this sword with the habaki slid down and that the hamachi and munemachi were uneven indicating further this might not be the original shape. Take the habaki off and angling at the light seen if the hamon curves to an end at the hamachi or disappears into the nakago (this may be hard to see).

Swords were made in later periods to re-create this shape and without an experienced person looking at the blade in hand it is very much speculation. So all that said, go easy with the brass brush and cleaning efforts as tempting and benign as they may seem. Actions taken now that seem to be making no difference now can have larger impact at finer stages of polishing. I think there may be some nice things in this sword so get it to your polisher and let them get started so you can have it back sooner and start REALLY enjoying it. Polish may help you answer your questions regarding age and school that are just too hard to ascertain from the condition state and photos. Best of luck!

 

It is a bit hard to see, but it DOES look as though the hamon goes straight back into the nakago rather than tapering off. I did not touch the rust and crud on ANY part of the nakago, even where the habaki covers it, as I have always been told to NEVER touch the nakago, no matter what (the rust can help determine the age of the blade, or something like that). So my scrubbing stopped at the machi. The blade itself is 14.7" from the hamachi to the tip of the kissaki.

 

As for the sword being Edo, that is what Daimyou on Evilbay was selling it as. I have heard that he is honest, though the blades he sells are either very tired or in bad need of restoration (like mine).

 

Are nagamaki naoshi fairly common?

 

The sword came with a battered but intact saya that has a badly worn koiguchi and a kozuka pocket, a rather battered copper habaki, and an old tsuka that not only was apparently of poor quality (the remaining samegawa was not wrapped, and not even in inlaid panels, but pieced together and glued on), but didn't even go with this blade (the mekugi ana in the tsuka did not even come close to lining up with the one in the nakago).

 

I don't know if the saya is worth saving and restoring or not, or if it can be taken apart and the inside cleaned, the koiguchi shimmed to fit the habaki, and the outside relacquered, or if I should have a totally new saya made for it along with a new tsuka. First priority, or course, is to have it polished and put in shirasaya. While I am not good at outside contouring of wood, I am good enough at wood working to inlet the blade into a crude-looking but protective shirasaya that will keep the blade safe after polish, until I can afford to have a professional make proper koshirae.

[drbvac]

I would slow down just a bit - this blade is 15 inches long, pretty rough shape and no doubt has been shortened a lot - from what God knows - but even at that you are looking at over a grand to polish this mumei nihonto and you should get a polisher to open a window to see if it is even worth doing so.

 

A blade you bought for a couple hundred bucks on e-bay will RARELY be worth spending 100 dollars an inch to polish - never mind the cost of a new shirasaya.

[Birdman]

I would slow down just a bit - this blade is 15 inches long, pretty rough shape and no doubt has been shortened a lot - from what God knows - but even at that you are looking at over a grand to polish this mumei nihonto and you should get a polisher to open a window to see if it is even worth doing so.

 

A blade you bought for a couple hundred bucks on e-bay will RARELY be worth spending 100 dollars an inch to polish - never mind the cost of a new shirasaya.

So does where I bought it, what I paid for it, its size, and the fact that it's unsigned and in need of restoration somehow make it "unworthy"? I mentioned in another post that I did not buy it for an investment, expecting it to appreciate in value, or break even on it, but solely for my own enjoyment. I think it's a neat sword, myself.

 

I am currently on Dave Hofhine's list for a foundation polish (waiting time approximately 23 months right now), so in the meanwhile I will get some yellow poplar (the closest U.S. eqivalent to honoki) and make my own shirasaya to protect the blade. The outside appearance might not match the skills of an expert sayashi, but I am capable of decent inletting work (from my experience building muzzleloaders). Hofhine will likely open a window and tell me from there whether it's worth restoring. If so, then I will see about getting a professional to make a really nice looking shirasaya and koshirae.

 

Now, as to the old saya - there are no cracks that I can see, though the wood at the edges of the kozuka pocket is a bit compressed ("bruised"), and the lacquer is chipped in many places right down to bare wood. Also, the koiguchi is very worn and does not conform to the habaki very snugly. Would it be worthwhile restoring this saya - can they be disassembled to clean out any rust or dirt that could scratch a polished blade - or should I just save it so a sayashi can use it as a template for a new saya?

[John A Stuart]

If you are happy doing what you plan, great; that's what it's all about ultimately. Old koshirae can be repaired, but, I suggest a new one, if money is no object. Don't forget to sign with a given name. John

[Birdman]

If you are happy doing what you plan, great; that's what it's all about ultimately. Old koshirae can be repaired, but, I suggest a new one, if money is no object. Don't forget to sign with a given name. John

Sorry about that...forgot it doesn't sign automatically.

 

Is there anyone you can recommend for both repairing old koshirae, and making new koshirae? I realize this will be expensive, but I'd like to find someone who does decent work at a RELATIVELY low price (which is why I picked David Hofhine for my polishing - he has a reputation for excellent work, at under $100/inch).

 

Thanks!

 

Rich

[John A Stuart]

You might ask Ted Tenold or John Tirado. I don't know if John's site is active anymore. sayashi.com John

[Birdman]

sayashi.com seems to be a dead website. I sent an email to Tenold; I'll see what he says.

[Birdman]

Tenold's email address is dead, and much of his website is down. There is a note on his site saying he is not taking any more polishing commissions. I'm going to hazard a guess that he's not taking more commissions at all at this time.

[O koumori]

Rich,

IMHO when the hardened edge bends, curls, or burrs over, instead of chipping on impact, there may be an issue with the heat treatment. It is possible that this has been overly annealed by way of fire or improper re-temper. Just saying…

You might ask David H. about the edge hardness, the subject of your post.

Dan K.

[Birdman]

Rich,

IMHO when the hardened edge bends, curls, or burrs over, instead of chipping on impact, there may be an issue with the heat treatment. It is possible that this has been overly annealed by way of fire or improper re-temper. Just saying…

You might ask David H. about the edge hardness, the subject of your post.

Dan K.

Yes, the e-mail he sent me said that it may not have been very hard to begin with, or it might have lost some of its temper in a fire. Were all of them generally glass-hard, then? Or were there a few that weren't tempered that hard?

 

For that matter, wouldn't the temper line be gone if it had been burned? It's still visible on my sword.

[O koumori]

Rich,

I wouldn't call them "glass-hard;" that sounds to brittle to me - but in order to hold the sharp edge, the higher carbon steel comprising the ha had to be quenched more rapidly tha the rest of the blade, making the steel here much harder than the rest of the blade. As I understand it, It has to do with the crystaline structure of the metal as a result of being relatively faster or slower cooled during the quenching process. This is due in part by the thinness of the metal here, but mainly to the thinner clay coating applied to the edge before the quench (the rest of the blade coating is thicker, causing slower cooling).

Hope this helps

Dan K.

[Lee Bray]

I honestly wouldn't worry about heat treatment if the edge is rolled.

I've rolled many an edge of knives, both custom and production, that have good heat treatment.

A naginata that I have had the top 2mm of tip snapped off and a further 2mm was bent just behind the snap.

It went in for repair last week and the polisher said there were no issues with the blade.

 

Hamon can still be present if the blade has been through a fire. It depends on the temperature the blade reached; if it only reached a few hundred degrees, it will have been tempered but not to a state where it loses all of the hardened steel and therefore hamon will be still be there but perhaps not as defined or as much activity(if there was any). If it went beyond several hundred then the steel crystals will have returned to a softer state and there will be no hamon.

[Birdman]

Rich,

 

You describe this as an Edo-period wakizashi but I dont know if that is necessarily true. It's shape may indicate a koto period nagamaki-naoshi. This would mean it was cut down (from bottom up) and its nakago reshaped to fit in a conventional handle. I remember your other pic of this sword with the habaki slid down and that the hamachi and munemachi were uneven indicating further this might not be the original shape. Take the habaki off and angling at the light seen if the hamon curves to an end at the hamachi or disappears into the nakago (this may be hard to see).

Swords were made in later periods to re-create this shape and without an experienced person looking at the blade in hand it is very much speculation. So all that said, go easy with the brass brush and cleaning efforts as tempting and benign as they may seem. Actions taken now that seem to be making no difference now can have larger impact at finer stages of polishing. I think there may be some nice things in this sword so get it to your polisher and let them get started so you can have it back sooner and start REALLY enjoying it. Polish may help you answer your questions regarding age and school that are just too hard to ascertain from the condition state and photos. Best of luck!

Well, I removed some of the rust where the habaki goes. The temper line ends about 1/2" from the hamachi. So I'm guessing it's probably not a nagamaki-naoshi, but probably made as a ko-wakizashi.

 

Was there a time period during which wakizashi blades of this style (and size?) were "in vogue"? Or was this style in use over a rather long period of time?

[Brian]

Please don't forget to sign ALL posts with a name, or add it to your profile as a signature.

 

Thanks,

Brian

[drbvac]

Rich:

 

I trust my earlier comment did not offend - its just that as we all have done it is easy to fall so much in love with our "first" be it blades or women to spend more on them than they will ever be worth :lol:

 

here is a link to a neat treatise on wakizashi and length .

 

http://www.una.edu/faculty/takeuchi/DrT ... of_wak.htm

[Birdman]

Rich:

 

I trust my earlier comment did not offend - its just that as we all have done it is easy to fall so much in love with our "first" be it blades or women to spend more on them than they will ever be worth :lol:

 

here is a link to a neat treatise on wakizashi and length .

 

http://www.una.edu/faculty/takeuchi/DrT ... of_wak.htm

Hmmm... interesting article. So, probably depending on koshirae, my sword could be either a ko-wakizashi, or a sun-nobi tanto? I'm leaning towards wakizashi, based on the saya - it resembles more wakizashi saya that I have seen, rather than a tanto saya.

 

As to the other part of my question: was there a particular period of time when shobu-zukuri wakizashi, with high shinogi and narrow mune, were particularly in vogue? Is it likely that it's Edo period, as it was sold as, or is it more likely earlier?

 

BTW, though it will be easier to tell once it's polished, the hamon appears to be notare.

[Sporkkaji]

sayashi.com seems to be a dead website. I sent an email to Tenold; I'll see what he says.

 

Mr. Tirado is currently doing some work for me, but I think only because I got lucky. When I was asking around about someone who does quality koshirae work, I was accidentally given the secret email address that goes straight to his Blackberry.

[Birdman]

Mr. Tirado is currently doing some work for me, but I think only because I got lucky. When I was asking around about someone who does quality koshirae work, I was accidentally given the secret email address that goes straight to his Blackberry.

The website seems to be up again. I e-mailed him from the website a couple days ago but haven't gotten a reply yet.

[sanjuro]

Hi.

 

Q and A time......

 

Is this sword likely to be from the Edo period as claimed by the seller? Yes almost certainly.

Has it been cut down from something else? Probably not since during the Edo period quite a number of these swords and of this style were produced for the merchant class. The style appears to be basically a style sometimes associated with Soshu blades popular during the sengoku jidai, but this blade is I think hardly big enough or proportioned well enough to be from that period and that school, or to be once of a size indicative of a longer or larger blade IMHO. Late Mino (Seki) springs to mind but without the sword in hand it is impossible to tell.

As far as edge hardness goes, There is no such thing as a glass hard edge, since such a level of hardness is not achievable in steel and would in any case be extremely brittle.

The general indicators are if the edge rolls up then the metal is too soft. If the edge chips in a large piece and breaks away, then it is too hard. If the edge crumbles at the point of impact and leaves a grainy surface behind in the damaged area then the metal has been well forged. However, within almost every ha there are areas of varying comparative hardness, so all of the above may (although I hope not), be applicable to any one given blade, depending upon the point at which the damage occurs. All of this is also subject to and modified by other factors such as the force applied to the blow at the point of impact, the nature of the object impacted (blunt - sharp) etc , the shape, and the tensile/torsional strength and material of the object impacted, the size of the object impacted and the angle of the impact in relation to the edge. etc. None of these of course can be determined by looking at photographs and even with the blade in hand, the product and effect of this type of damage is assessable only reliably to any degree by a togishi.

Is it worth polishing? Only you and a togishi can decide that, but a ha that curls at the boshi where the level of temper should be at its height, is not going to be a hard edge by any measure, regardless of the above.

 

Sorry if I am not saying what you would wish to hear. We all have loved our first blades regardless, and your affection for this blade is understood. I would not be overly critical of it for that reason. It is however only my opinion for whatever that is worth.

[Birdman]

Hi.

 

Q and A time......

 

Is this sword likely to be from the Edo period as claimed by the seller? Yes almost certainly.

Has it been cut down from something else? Probably not since during the Edo period quite a number of these swords and of this style were produced for the merchant class. The style appears to be basically a style sometimes associated with Soshu blades popular during the sengoku jidai, but this blade is I think hardly big enough or proportioned well enough to be from that period and that school, or to be once of a size indicative of a longer or larger blade IMHO. Late Mino (Seki) springs to mind but without the sword in hand it is impossible to tell.

By "late Mino", does that also indicate "late Edo"? 1700's? 1800's? Can any useful clues as to age and origin be gained from looking at the nakago?

 

 

[Grey Doffin]

From looking at the nakago we can see that the sword has been polished a lot. The only reason this blade still has a ha-machi and most of the mune-machi is because someone has ground back the top edges of the nakago, and past polishers have left an unnatural flare above the ha-machi. This, combined with the amount of polish necessary to make most of the other defects in the blade disappear, makes it almost certain that it will be a very tired sword (lots of shin-tetsu showing through the skin) when you're done with polish.

Had you shown the pictures to a properly trained polisher before you bought this, I'm sure he would have told you to stay away from it. Have this sword polished and you'll be throwing good money after bad. With so many worthy blades needing restoration, why waste time and treasure on this?

Grey

[sanjuro]

Late Mino is quite a broad speculation and can include dates all the way through the Edo period. Its a bit of a cop out really since in this case it is hard to tell accurately what style this blade is mean to be. Remember that as the Shinto sword period came in, the gokaden as it was perceived in the koto period was largely being lost due to the centralisation of smelting, the cross polination of styles and the concomitant mixture of styles being produced by the various schools. The purity of the five traditions was in fact dying out, and by the late Edo period was barely discernible any longer. Certainly there were blades being produced faithfully to the style of all five traditions but the regional differences in the steel being used was a thing of the past. This blade of yours seems to me to come from a time somewhere toward the mid to end of the Edo period. I am rather partial to koto period Soshu work, and this seems to fit that general style but only to a point. We cant see the hada unfortunately and it is possible that the sugata has been changed by successive polishings. The Ha machi has most certainly been relocated forward of the Mune machi for some reason, a feature that is not very common unless the ha machi has been lost through chipping and/or overpolishing.

The nakago could be any age from early to late Edo, but not earlier I think. The patina suggests one thing (late Edo)and the shape of the nakago jiri suggests another, (Possibly early Edo) yet neither of these is definitive since patina is a result of the care or lack of care given to the nakago over time, and the nakago jiri of this shape were not exclusive to any school or period. The steel would tell its own story and may prove me totally wrong, but in the final analysis this is a tired blade that has lost condition thus hiding many distinguishing features that would give us better clues. I cant really add much more without going into pure speculation, and there are more knowledgable ( and more prudent) members of this forum that may disagree entirely with my estimates and reasoning.

[Birdman]

Had you shown the pictures to a properly trained polisher before you bought this, I'm sure he would have told you to stay away from it. Have this sword polished and you'll be throwing good money after bad. With so many worthy blades needing restoration, why waste time and treasure on this?

Grey

I have already shown photos to Dave Hofhine, and he says it still has a chance. if the edge defects do not go past the hamon. I am on his waiting list for a foundation polish (about 23 months), and I'm pretty sure he will open a window to see if further polishing is warranted.

[Birdman]

Late Mino is quite a broad speculation and can include dates all the way through the Edo period. Its a bit of a cop out really since in this case it is hard to tell accurately what style this blade is mean to be. Remember that as the Shinto sword period came in, the gokaden as it was perceived in the koto period was largely being lost due to the centralisation of smelting, the cross polination of styles and the concomitant mixture of styles being produced by the various schools. The purity of the five traditions was in fact dying out, and by the late Edo period was barely discernible any longer. Certainly there were blades being produced faithfully to the style of all five traditions but the regional differences in the steel being used was a thing of the past. This blade of yours seems to me to come from a time somewhere toward the mid to end of the Edo period. I am rather partial to koto period Soshu work, and this seems to fit that general style but only to a point. We cant see the hada unfortunately and it is possible that the sugata has been changed by successive polishings. The Ha machi has most certainly been relocated forward of the ha machi for some reason, a feature that is not very common unless the ha machi has been lost through chipping and/or overpolishing.

The nakago could be any age from early to late Edo, but not earlier I think. The patina suggests one thing (late Edo)and the shape of the nakago jiri suggests another, (Possibly early Edo) yet neither of these is definitive since patina is a result of the care or lack of care given to the nakago over time, and the nakago jiri of this shape were not exclusive to any school or period. The steel would tell its own story and may prove me totally wrong, but in the final analysis this is a tired blade that has lost condition thus hiding many distinguishing features that would give us better clues. I cant really add much more without going into pure speculation, and there are more knowledgable ( and more prudent) members of this forum that may disagree entirely with my estimates and reasoning.

Could this possibly be a lesser piece by Minamoto Kiyomara, or one of his students? It would be about the right period, and according to The Connoiseur's Book of Japanese Swords, he was partly known for shobu-zukuri ko-wakizashi. Might a lesser quality piece, even by a well-known smith, possibly be left unsigned when it was made and be put on the market?

 

This ko-wakizashi, from about the same period, seems to be similar to mine (albeit in much better shape):

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/09214.html

[sanjuro]

Oh dear..... Do you like this sad piece so much?

 

Let me be honest with you here. Please do not take this as an unkindly comment. Grey and I have given you our opinions based on years of experience collecting nihonto. If you choose to ignore our opinions then so be it. If you are now asking us to assist you in the rationalisation of the choice you have made to have this blade polished then I'm afraid you will find little support. The worst thing a new collector can do to himself, (and we have all been tempted as you are now) is to take a passage from a book in isolation and frame it so as to justify a vain hope, such as you are doing.

 

Could it be a Kiyomaro? Anything is possible in this world but the chances are less than winning the lottery. If it is a 'lesser" example of a Kiyomaro then this could only be established at Shinsa after the blade has been polished to reveal God knows what, and for the price of the polish you could own a better sword. Are you prepared to extend access to your wallet to the extent of a couple of thousand dollars to justify your rationalisation? Love this blade if you must, but dont spend money on it. In the end you will most likely be sorely dissappointed. Prudence and common sense would surely indicate that the money would be better spent in the purchase of a better blade.

[Birdman]

To be honest, while well-made and polished nihonto are truly things of beauty, and wonderful works of art, and while I would like mine polished not only to restore its appearance, but also its functionality, I am far more interested in it as an artifact, rather than art. That is why I am trying to discover its age and origins: as in, "if this blade could talk, what stories could it tell? What was happening when it was newly forged?", that sort of thing. I collect antique guns for the same reason. As an example, I own a Smith & Wesson #2 .32 rimfire revolver. It's been refinished at some point, and the serial number on the cylinder does not match the rest of the gun, so much of its "collector value" is gone; however, it is mechanically functional and has a good bore, and the serial number places its manufacture in late 1864: near the end of the Civil War. Despite its lower value to a connoiseur, I value it as an artifact of a time of historic events. One day I will spend $50 and find out from S&W who it was originally sold to, and when, even if it was just to some New York hardware store. But that is primarily where my interest in old weapons of any sort comes from.

 

By the way, the hada is visible, in part, especially right above the hamon. From what I can see (and obviously, it will show better with polishing), it appears to be masame, and the hamon appears to be notare.

[Jean]

You will notice that the hamachi is not aligned with the munemachi, meaning that as it was said only the munemachi was moved up.

 

A good chopper probably, but no more. Shobuzukuri blades were in vogue in sue Muromachi and as I say very stout blades

[Birdman]

You will notice that the hamachi is not aligned with the munemachi, meaning that as it was said only the munemachi was moved up.

 

A good chopper probably, but no more. Shobuzukuri blades were in vogue in sue Muromachi and as I say very stout blades

Yes, I noticed it has a good amount of "heft" to it. It feels very "solid", as it were.

 

I've seen lots of original nihonto on the web that also had the hamachi moved up, but not the munemachi. Was this common, then? Why not move the munemachi as well? What was the general reasoning behind this? Or were there lots of different reasons? I know on my blade it was likely, as was mentioned, a result of either a repair or of lots of polishing.