kokyo jin Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 Not directly related to Nihonto, but based on your knowledge of Japanese legends, perhaps you can help in motif identification of the following... Quote
kokyo jin Posted February 5, 2011 Author Report Posted February 5, 2011 Could this be Yoshitsune and Benkei on Gojo Bridge..? or maybe it is depicting a totally different story? Quote
cabowen Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 it would be greatly appreciated if you would refrain from using multicolored fonts for your text as they are extremely difficult to read. Yes, this is Benkei and Yoshitsune on the bridge.... Quote
Nobody Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 Though I do not know the motif, I am sure that it is not Yoshitsune and Benkei. Quote
cabowen Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 I stand corrected...should have looked a bit closer and I would have seen that there is not a spear involved.....looks like they are standing on a bridge though.... Guess the motif is "two guys fighting".... My comments on the use of colored text stands.....please stick to black..... Quote
kokyo jin Posted February 5, 2011 Author Report Posted February 5, 2011 Dear Chris, Sorry about the fonts... But please note your signature has a much more annoying color Quote
Brian Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 Bear in mind that a very few people are not using the standard theme for the forum, and may have chosen other themes with different colours and therefore changing the text colout may look very odd to many people. Anyways, one of these days I am going to remove the other themes and force one theme (easier for maintenance) but not just yet, so don't panic. Brian Quote
cabowen Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 Dear Chris, Sorry about the fonts... But please note your signature has a much more annoying color Yes, it may be annoying, but at least it is legible and not the central part of the post.... Quote
kokyo jin Posted February 5, 2011 Author Report Posted February 5, 2011 Regardless of the font color issue... Who are the figures depicted above? Quote
watsonmil Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 Dear Hilik, I would have to disagree with Mr. Moriyama, ... and state that I believe this is quite likely an interpretation of Yoshitsune and Benkei on Gojo Bridge. Although Benkei is normally depicted carrying a Naginata, .... upon reading a rather long account of the historical and/or legendary life of Yoshitsune and a section devoted to the relationship between Benkei and Yoshitsune and therein giving an account of their confrontation on Gojo Bridge, ... there is no mention in the account that I read of the famous Naginata but rather .... " Benkei drew his sword and there was a fight in which Yoshitsune was the victor, Bekei thus having to go on his way with a warning against his evil practices instead of the thousandth sword that he expected. " .... It may actually be a more accurate depiction of Yoshitsune and Benkei on this particular occasion than one normally views in Japanese Art. I can recall no other famous legend that this might otherwise represent especially given the combat is depicted upon a bridge, I think it too coincidental to be just an armed disagreement without meaning. It is most likely the artists interpretation of the confrontation as he had read or had related to him. ... Ron Watson Quote
kokyo jin Posted February 5, 2011 Author Report Posted February 5, 2011 Thank you Ron. I tend to agree with you on that, but still wanted to verify. Here is the more common depiction of Yoshitsune and Benkei.. Quote
kokyo jin Posted February 5, 2011 Author Report Posted February 5, 2011 Could this one be related as well..? Quote
cabowen Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 for some reason these figures don't look quite like Japanese depictions to me.... Quote
watsonmil Posted February 5, 2011 Report Posted February 5, 2011 Dear Hilik, Chris, Oh, ... they are very much Japanese and still fairly common although Vestas ( match safe's ) were made in a variety of shapes, themes and material, ... examples of Japanese origin are not terribly rare YET. There is actually a very good article on them in : ARTS OF ASIA ( Sept-Oct issue 1986 page's 142, 143 ). I have a couple in my collection of Japanese artifacts. By the way, .... the reverse side of your original posting ( photo of Match safe ) confirms my conclusion that this is the Yoshitsune - Benkei theme in that it depicts Benkei the mischievious " youth thief " awaiting his victim at the Gojo Bridge. You have two very nice Vestas there my friend. ... Ron Watson Quote
Nobody Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Why the motif is not Yoshitsune and Benkei: 1. The back ground is not Gojo Bridge. I think that the place is a residence or its corridor. Look at a curtain on the top. 2. The young samurai is not Benkei. Benkei was a monk soldier. Look at his costume and hairstyle. Is his head close-cropped? 3. The other samurai is not Yoshitune. In the episode at Gojo bridge, Yoshitune did not put on armor. And Yoshitsune was much shorter than Benkei. 4. The scene (my guess) The young samurai was going to attack someone in a residence. Before he achieved his purpose, he was prevented by the armored samurai by pinioning. Quote
k morita Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Hi , kokyo jin #1 pic: The motif is one scene of [The Tale of the Soga Brothers].曽我兄弟 A man patterned of the butterfly is Soga Goro. 1 Quote
watsonmil Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Dear Moriyama, You make a far more convincing argument than I, .... in fact I must in this instance admit complete and utter defeat ( not that easy for me ). I was allowing for artistic license in the depiction, ... but I agree there are just too many discrepencies. I always look at Japanese themes ( art ) as having either natural, historic and/or legendary foundation. It is good to be set upon with concrete argument and I cannot further argue my interpretation in this case. May I be your Benkei ... Ron Watson Quote
kokyo jin Posted February 6, 2011 Author Report Posted February 6, 2011 Dear Ron, I'm afraid it is not that easy. The first and last images are NOT from the same vesta. Each vesta has the same depiction on both sides, so I wasn't quite sure they are related. I tend to agree with Morita sama on this. He is correct on the theme. ---- Morita sama, Thank you !! I was unfamiliar with this story up to now. I was able to find evidence that supports your version... First vesta probably shows 'Soga no Goro and Asahina Saburo in armour pulling'. http://collectionsonline.lacma.org/mweb ... 3;type=101 http://www.printsofjapan.com/Kuniyoshi_ ... h_Fudo.htm http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/ar ... earch_id=1 Last vesta shows 'Soga Goro with Sword in Hand' http://www.fujiarts.com/cgi-bin/item.pl?item=115484 Both shows motifs similar in both vestas, such as the hair style and the Aoi (hollyhock) Mon on the curtain. Hilik Quote
Brian Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Once again, Moriyama san and Morita san teach us a lesson. Excellent! Brian Quote
kokyo jin Posted February 6, 2011 Author Report Posted February 6, 2011 This one seems to be related to the same story, as the Mon on the curtain is the same, but I am not sure exactly which scene it depicts. Who is the lady with the lamp? Quote
watsonmil Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Dear Hilik, Given my recent ability to identify characters in Japanese History/Legend, ....... I feel only confident in saying whom she is not. She is not Florence Nightingale nor Lili Marleen ! ... Ron Watson Quote
Nobody Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 I am not sure, but she might be Maizuru (舞鶴), who is Asahina Saburo's sister. Quote
kokyo jin Posted February 11, 2011 Author Report Posted February 11, 2011 In all of the Ukiyoe that I found of Wada Gassen Onna Maizuru, her kimono is adorned with crane crests, and non with her holding a lamp. I found no evidence to support the theory that it is her figure. Which other women are involved in Soga Monogatari please?? Quote
kokyo jin Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Posted February 22, 2011 Found out the answer by myself... It is The Heroine Toragozen in Soga: Quote
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