Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 I own a very old bokken from the Momoyama period that was presented to me which has a soft leather saya that partially covers the tsuka also. Pics with the evidences proving it's from the period you claim it's from are now expected as well...
sanjuro Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Pics with the evidences proving it's from the period you claim it's from are now expected as well... Carlo. In that respect I must disappoint you. I have no documented evidence of its age, only the word of the man who presented it to me. A man I have no reason to doubt and in whose hands I would (and have) placed my very life, when we have performed kata together using nihonto. I would not insult his memory by doubting his word or having his word doubted by others. If this is a condition I must meet then there is no point in providing even the pictures if all I achieve is to have the subject of them questioned by all who see them. I'm sorry but this has now gone beyond the mere sharing of knowledge, in a way I do not care for. Doubt my word if you must but not that of my Sensei whom you do not know.
estcrh Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 If this is a condition I must meet then there is no point in providing even the pictures if all I achieve is to have the subject of them questioned by allKeith, I also have items that while I believe the age that was told to me by the person I received it from I just refer to them as "old", "antique" "very old" etc when displaying them to people, just to avoid this very situation. Hopefully you will overlook this and post the pictures of your bokken if you can as I am sure most people interested in this subject will understand and accept your explanation and will appreciate seeing a historic item like this, I know I would.
estcrh Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Ah ok now's clear.Keith, it seems that Carlo was not reading the posts properly and thought he was questioning (attacking) the authenticity of one of my items (as usual) and did not realize it was your bokken I wanted to see pictures of.
sanjuro Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Carlo. That was my bokken, not Eric's. He was referring to a post of mine where I mentioned that I owned a bokken from the Momoyama period that had a leather cover. It was originally mentioned as an illustration of a point I was making at the time concerning bokken with saya. I regret now having mentioned it at all. This sort of thing is why I never put up my swords for discussion on this or any forum, nor do I generally make any claims about those swords or other artifacts I do possess unless there are papers to support the claims. In this case, since I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone - you either take my word for it or not. It is a moot point in any case.
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Keith, it seems that Carlo was not reading the posts properly and thought he was questioning (attacking) the authenticity of one of my items (as usual) and did not realize it was your bokken I wanted to see pictures of. Exactly. There are people I trust and other that I don't. Keith is one that has no need to post evidences to convince *me*.
estcrh Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Exactly. There are people I trust and other that I don't. Keith is one that has no need to post evidences to convince *me*. And there are some people who I could care less what their opinion is and would not waste the time trying to change their Machiavellian ways let alone try to "convince" this self imposed "Expert" of anything.
estcrh Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 In the meantime we're still waiting to see the above ones. For anyone who does not know what a "tekkan or tetsu ken'' is here is a link to some pictures. Just an iron bar weapon in the shape of a sword. Some are elaborate and look like a koshirae and have a kurigata, but you will just have to take my word on that.
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Some are elaborate and look like a koshirae and have a kurigata, but you will just have to take my word on that. What would be the Kurigata purpose on this... item ?
Tsugio Kawakami Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Usagiya has a very similar truncheon (They label it hachiwari). http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/others28.html In the end, though, the only reason for a kurigata is as an anchor point, isn't it? Why would you want to anchor something that, to be useful in a violent situation, needs to be free and easily accessible? Wouldn't that be like tying the katana to the obi by use of the tsuba hitsu-ana? I doubt an assailant would stand there and wait just because the other guy called a time out while he untied his weapon.
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Usagiya has a very similar truncheon (They label it hachiwari). Usagiya ? Methink somebody would place them into the category of "self imposed Experts" too so be not too sure about how they call these Edo items. I'm really intrigued on how the Kurigata would be freed by the sageo that pass into it, to maintain this item tied to the obi, once this item is removed for use. Not smart having a surely not short cord attached to your weapon during a fight. *Unless* they simply weren't meant to be used, as suggested for the laquered bokken.
Guido Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 This thread beats the movie "The Men Who Stare At Goats" hands down!
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 You ate that film because it hasn't Nicolas Cage :lol:
sanjuro Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Tetsu ken and also tetsu bo as I Understand it were in fact used to build up the strength in the upper torso much as a siburito was. That of course applies to a full sized version. I am not aware of them being used as a weapon in the true sense but hey... No one is all knowing. If you could swing one of these brutes then you could give an opponent a humungous headache and screw up the ha of his sword big time. A theory only, but one of the bigger brutes used as a weapon would be carried slung across the back surely, since it would be too cumbersome and heavy to just slip through the obi and boogy around with any decorum. Perhaps the kurikata was a loop by which a sageo or strap could be attached to enable such a method of carrying? The one Eric has posted is only a little one so I guess its either for a garden gnome or it is meant to be a biggish sort of tanto. Nice to have a round if you have a rowdy party and you need to quieten down the drunks. Gives a whole new meaning to the word Kosh-izori Just a theory........ Dont shoot the messenger!
estcrh Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 A hachi wari is usually described as being a square iron bar weapon with either a sharp point or cast as a truncheon, it is curved and has a hook. In Japan maybe it has a different meaning but in western books it has a specific meaning and look. I have read that a cast iron hachi wari can be classified as a tekkan or tetsu ken which are described a being an iron bar weapon in the shape of a sword. There is not much research in this area that I can find. The truncheon like wood and iron bar weapons (jutte, hachi wari, tessen,tanbo, etc) are classed together by some writers as "uchimono" meaning in some way "things to hit with", at least thats the meaning I have found. These weapons can be as simple as a plain iron bar or stick with no hole in it or handle area, or they can be much more elaborate, probably depending on the status ($$$) of the owner. As for why any of these weapons would be tied to anything? Many Jutte, tessen etc have some method to tie or attach the weapon to the person using it, possibly when in a situation were you would not expect to use it in a hurry. The same could be said for having a kurigata. Another reason for a kurigata on a sword like weapon could just be that its just completed the look. I do not think that at this point anyone can say for sure. Here is a picture of a tessen next to a cast iron hachi wari.
Bugyotsuji Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Only just read this thread and it reminded me of a fairly long bokuto/bokken at a friend's house. Instead of a Tsuba, it has an iron kagi to catch the opponent's weapon and presumably protect the right hand. No doubt that it is old. I was tempted to ask for it as I suspect he would have given it to me, but there are limits to cheekiness, so I limited the request to taking pics of it.
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 an iron kagi *This* could be a much better working way to attach such items to the Obi than an kurigata. Firefighter's tools had the same. The other uses you suggest are possible as well of course. Thanks for sharing.
Bugyotsuji Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Carlo, this thing was so long that if a less-than-giant person pushed it through his obi, it would have surely dragged along the ground. :?
estcrh Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Once again Piers, great picture, I love to see these unusual variations. What do you estimate its length to be?
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Carlo, this thing was so long that if a less-than-giant person pushed it through his obi, it would have surely dragged along the ground. :? In this case is right. Just suggesting the way other similar items were attached to the obi in a far better way than with a kurigata, as firefigthers tools were..
sanjuro Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 This concern about a kurikata and the tying off of the weapon to the obi has thus far ignored two alternative ways of tying the sageo off at the obi. The first and most common one was to simply push up a loop of the sageo through the obi and not slip the end through. Thus if the weapon were needed hurredly then the loop simply slipped out of the obi. This was used by practitioners of iai who may wish to make a thrust with the sheathed sword (tsuka strike) as a precursor to drawing the sword. The second way is straight from The Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, where the sageo was in fact not tied off at the obi but merely looped over the saya below the obi where the saya passed beneath it.
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Edit : there were ways to fix the sword with loops of the obi without sageo.
Tsugio Kawakami Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Piers, that's fantastic! Never heard of a piece like that. As for the label hachiwari, I'm fully aware what a hachiwari is generally accepted to be. I was just stating what the people at Usagiya had it labeled as. As for using the sageo to tie the saya to the obi, the two ways I was instructed to use from KSR was to loop it behind the saya after it passed through the obi, then bring it back forward and loop it through the hakama himo near the tsuba; and to simply take the sageo and drape it fully across the front of the hakama to the himo on the right hand side, also just looped through. There were no knots involved. ...That still doesn't change the fact that the kurigata is an anchor point, though, and a weapon designed to be pulled completely free of an obi most likely shouldn't be anchored. The saya, while it may be pulled forward or free in the waza of different ryuha, is still designed to remain at the hip, in the obi. Even if it was only to "complete the look", then it should still serve a purpose to the design. It seems like this has gone in a totally different direction from the part that I took issue with. No-one is arguing that this may have been designed as an impact weapon. That's a given. Any solid, sword like object can be used for that purpose, and I would EXPECT it to be used like that. The part I disagree with was the "training weapon" aspect of it.
Stephen Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 WOW four pages and no Nihonto Tosogu police....
John A Stuart Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Hi Stephen, Except for the usual credential dispute that crops up occasionally the tone has been civil and an accord reached, hasn't it? Not much more can be said, I think, but, let's keep it less personal. OK, guys. John
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