Anyone know what these blade forms are called?

[Fogarty]

Hi Everyone,

 

Got these two pics from a knifemaking forum and nobody there knew what these blade forms were, so I thought I would ask here. Anyone with any info about what these forms are called please help. Thanks

 

Chuck Fogarty

[Fogarty]

How about this one?

 

Chuck Fogarty

 

[watsonmil]

Imaginitive & Fantasy ??

...Ron Watson

[drbvac]

If I had to hazard a guess they are obviously adaptations of some classic nihonto forms but have been distorted and changed by the knife makers.

 

One looks like a shortened dwarf naginata for cleaning a deer and the other like some sort of fish filetting knife

 

Nice work though and hamon looks great!

[Fogarty]

Im sorry I didnt make this clear, but these are pictures of nihonto, not something someone made recently. I think the guy said that these pics came off of a nihonto auction site.

 

Chuck Fogarty

[drbvac]

My apologies should I have appeared to be making fun of the work. That said they are still distorted and not what one would expect in "traditional nihonto" shapes or styles. There is no doubt they are Japanese forged blades with hamon and shape but they are probably free-style modern interpretations of classic blades.

 

Again the first looks like a Kanmuri-otoshi-zukuri shape but is more bulbous on the end than I would expect to see and the second - maybe Osaraku-zukuri shortened ?

 

I am not sure the provenance or what else I could say but would like to know the age - attribution etc??

[cabowen]

There is no doubt they are Japanese forged blades with hamon and shape but they are probably free-style modern interpretations of classic blades.

 

 

 

No, these are not modern. I have seen similar before.....do not know what to call them.....don't have my usual references available...

[estcrh]

I would not be so quick to call these unusual shapes modern, possibly just not well known to us.

 

Here is a discussion from another forum. http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21906

 

[Fogarty]

Thanks for the replies everyone. The reason I think these are nihonto is that they are very well made and if they were modern someone would be claiming them. They certainly could be modern made in Japan though. How about that 3rd pic I posted? Anyone know what this might be called? It looks like a speedboat to me. I traced that directly out of a oshigata book of Shinto blades which unfortunately I have no translation for.

 

We were wondering what the forms were called because we thought they looked interesting and might possibly want to copy them but if any of us did copy them we would need to know what to call them when we sell them.

 

As knifemakers we are mostly interested in the more unusual blade forms just because they are more interesting to make. Everyone makes Hira and Shinogi blades but a lot less people make any shobu or moroha or unokubi etc.

 

Chuck Fogarty

[Fogarty]

Thanks for the reply Eric!

 

I looked at that other post and that looks like the same blade! Very bizzare shape there. But in a good wayLOL

 

Chuck Fogarty

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

As knifemakers we are mostly interested in the more unusual blade forms just because they are more interesting to make. Everyone makes Hira and Shinogi blades but a lot less people make any shobu or moroha or unokubi etc.

 

hehehe, you're trying to beat Rick Barrett Sakabatou ? A really hard task...

 

BTW, shape shouldn't be your focus. If the most appealing thing of your blades is the shape, in the long run you'll end-up smithing fantasy pieces.

 

[Brian]

That second one looks so weighted at the tip, I'm thinking it is some variation of a throwing knife or dagger, maybe some form of shiruken?

First one would have been quite effective as a naginata-type of swung weapon.

 

Brian

[Fogarty]

Thanks for the replies everyone. We dont seem to be any closer to naming these forms, though. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to the third one that I posted?

 

Carlo, Im not trying to beat anyone, some of these guys are so good it would hard to try to "beat" them anyway, we are all just following our own paths as smiths. Rick Barrett, Howard Clark, John Smith, Walter Sorrells and many others to numerous to mention are all fantastic smiths who work primarily in the Japanese style. Some of these guys have inspired me to make these types of blades, sure, but I have been bladesmithing for 9 years now and I have made all sorts of knives. One thing I have never done yet is a fantasy knife though, I prefer to do reproductions of historic blades and I also like to make modern working knives. I really prefer to do reproductions of unusual blades that not that many people have done before. There are more than enough real historic blades out there to reproduce, no fantasy needed.

 

In order to do real historical work though, you have to do a lot of studying and question asking from the experts just like you do if you are collecting nihonto and that is why I am here asking these questions. The first two blades are unknown to me personally, they just came up in a discussion and I thought here would be the best place to ID them. The third blade I traced straight out of a oshigata book of shinto blades so I know for a fact that it was a shinto era nihonto. I would appreciate any help in naming these blade forms Thanks.

 

Chuck Fogarty

[Fogarty]

Brian, thanks for the reply.

 

I could be really wrong here, but I dont think that blade is a throwing blade. If it is the same blade that Eric posted the pics of in the mounts (and to me it appears to be the same blade), I think the mounts are the key here.

 

They are in Aikuchu (spelling?) mounts meant for wearing with armor. My guess is that that blade is made for piercing through armor. It follows design elements of armor piercing blades Ive seen from many different cultures. The triangular shaped front is perfect for punching through laquered armor, but would be too long(probably) for punching through metal armor. The much thinner back means no drag and a really quick stab once you get past the armor.

 

Chuck Fogarty

[Fogarty]

The other blade that looks like a naginata would be a good naginata except the tang is not nearly long enough to be a pole arm. What a puzzle!

 

Chuck Fogarty

[Mark Green]

The second one looks to be an ' Arkansaka tooth pick'

 

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

 

The first one, is a crazy combo of styles. Very cool looking though. And your right, it would make a great pole weapon.

 

Mark G

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

IMHO...

 

I think the mounts are the key here. They are in Aikuchu (spelling?) mounts meant for wearing with armor. My guess is that that blade is made for piercing through armor. It follows design elements of armor piercing blades Ive seen from many different cultures. The triangular shaped front is perfect for punching through laquered armor, but would be too long(probably) for punching through metal armor. The much thinner back means no drag and a really quick stab once you get past the armor.

 

Start assumptions from this mount will lead you to wrong results. You're not going to the battlefield with an unwrapped, all-urushi slippy tsuka and no Tsuba. Yoroidoshi weren't meant to pierce (non-chain) metal armors but to pass thru the scales/elements of armor or its leather if made this way. Yes, you need a strong cross section to (try to) pierce chainmail and heavy silk/leather, but it have to be thin enough to pass thru scales/elements of armor and to not have to displace too much (hardened) leather in order to pass-thru deeply. This blade seems to have a too large cross section to pass thru such elements as an hand-weapon. What is usually forgot about the cross section of blades (Tanto, Wakizashi and Yari) is the damage to flesh they gives. It's much harder to seam together a wound with 3 borders than one with only two (such a wound was also much harder to heal back then). That's why Yari blades have all 3 sides sharpened and sometimes hardened, as in the blade in topic.

Doesn't look to me a battlefield weapon.

 

The other blade that looks like a naginata would be a good naginata except the tang is not nearly long enough to be a pole arm. What a puzzle!

 

It seems just a dwarfed Kogarasumaru, or a curved and short version of a straight early Edo Naginata in Knutsen's collection. Short nakago and blade lengths looks balanced but not intended for a shafted weapon.

Two edged swords can clash with some uses of Wakizashi. If it's in this lenght range means it was probably made for show.

[bone]

The second one looks to be an ' Arkansaka tooth pick'

 

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

 

The first one, is a crazy combo of styles. Very cool looking though. And your right, it would make a great pole weapon.

 

Mark G

 

Hmmph! Being an Arkansakan myself I find that comment hilarious. :lol:

[Fogarty]

Heh, Arkansaka toothpick, that is a good one! I will have to remember that.

 

Carlo, you may very well be correct about the mounts. I wasnt thinking about the tsuka not being wrapped. Good catch there. Just goes to show all the different directions these things can take you in. Thanks for the observations.

 

I disagree about it being too large a cross section to penetrate hardened leather, it looks perfect for that to me. For metal armor I think the tip would actually need to be wider and shorter, like a bodkin tip on a english arrow. If you are trying to pierce chainmail armor then you want a long skinny tip like the tip on a algerian flyss that can get between and bust the links.

 

Chuck Fogarty

[Fogarty]

I think for that third blade I posted it might be a good idea for me to try and identify the text that goes with that particular oshigata and put it up on the translation section and maybe it will have the form name listed.

 

Chuck Fogarty