xxlotus8xx Posted January 14, 2011 Report Posted January 14, 2011 I'm sure some of you folks have read this already. But what really struck me is the references to other supernatural forces and influences. http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=598 Quote
Mark Green Posted January 14, 2011 Report Posted January 14, 2011 HUMMMMMMMM? From the article: "Students must be reminded of the seriousness and risk associated with tameshigiri. Nihon-to harbor the influences of those who have previously owned and used them. They are spiritual magnets, drawing to them forces and influences from the world beyond our present consciousness. If old or ancient, swords can harbor unfathomable spiritual forces wielding incredible power. Occasionally, these forces and desires are so powerful as to influence the mind and intentions of the current owner. These forces can be put to rest by invoking the incantations and prayers contained in the gokui. These efforts are not permanent however. Tameshigiri frequently reawakens these spiritual forces especially if the intent and spirit of the practitioner is impure. For this reason, it is important that all swords used for tameshigiri be purified and rested between tameshigiri sessions. " OK then. Mark G Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 14, 2011 Report Posted January 14, 2011 This is not so surprising. There is many instances where divine influence is credited with martial arts. The Tengu giving mere mortals their secrets, for example. If spiritualism can provide more focus on one's art or even way of life and provide a superior 'elan' I think it is just fine. They use visualisation and positive thinking in sports and medicine, not much different. John Quote
sanjuro Posted January 15, 2011 Report Posted January 15, 2011 In some cultures and often in the case of Nihonto, the sword as an object of reverence has attracted to it the religious appelations and sometimes even the assumption of sentience we read reflected in this passage. The reputation of Muramasa blades as blood thirsty for instance intimates a quality within the object that is something beyond the inanimate, and possibly a reflection of the maker or previous owners. A nihonto is traditionally forged in an atmosphere of reverence, ceremony and spiritual purity. There is a kamiza in every traditional forge and also in every traditional martial arts dojo. The making and use of a weapon has traditionally been associated with much spiritual content. I guess such a viewpoint is to be respected for what it is and in the light of the culture that produced it. Quote
Shepherd Posted January 15, 2011 Report Posted January 15, 2011 I don't believe inanimate posess a "spirit" or "soul", they can be neither good or bad. They are simply an extension of the person wielding them. Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 15, 2011 Report Posted January 15, 2011 Quite so, but, if you believe they do then you will act accordingly. ie. are there cures at Fatima by divine intervention or cures by belief that there are? John Quote
Wickstrom Posted January 15, 2011 Report Posted January 15, 2011 There is definitely something spiritual about nihon-to......But I don't think your going to evoke the wrath of the samurai because you cut 1 too many floor mats. Quote
xxlotus8xx Posted January 15, 2011 Author Report Posted January 15, 2011 I don't believe inanimate posess a "spirit" or "soul", they can be neither good or bad. They are simply an extension of the person wielding them. While an inanimate object may not possess a soul I believe inanimate objects can retain energy. In this case the energy or the intent of the person wielding the nihonto. And the person before them. And as far back as a swords lineage goes. In some cases this may be a very long time with many owners that may have harbored ill intent. Without straying to far off topic and as a person that has experienced, umm...supernatural events and experiences throughout my life it has become quite clear that there is MUCH more than meets the eye... Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted January 15, 2011 Report Posted January 15, 2011 Morning all, Screwball theory time: "The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.." (To quote L.P. Hartley) Perhaps we should also analyse who said what to whom and why in the original Aikido Journal article. On my reading, it's not solely about tameshigiri and spirituality but more one man's attempt to bridge the Sensei / Montei gap in the passing on of an oral tradition from a member of one culture and generation to a member of another culture and generation. There's a dialogue between Robert Mitchum (Kilmer) & Herb Edelman (Wheat) from Sidney Pollack's 1974 movie "The Yakuza" which is pertinent: Kilmer: "Everywhere I look, I can't recognise a thing..." Wheat: "Farmers watch T.V. on their tatami mats and you can't see Fuji for the smog, but don't be fooled, this is Japan, and they're still Japanese." It's the nature of evolution that things get lost along the way, just in the same way as English language as a poetic form of narrative expression developed from say Chaucer to Kerouac (both wrote potential Road Movie scripts really); no different in the dissemination of a Ryuha I suggest. Cheers Malcolm Quote
Curgan Posted January 15, 2011 Report Posted January 15, 2011 I think we are trying to interpete Japanese culture with our own "western" standards. According to the "western" point of view the inanimate have no "energy", soul, karma or anything. They are just objects. The Japanese are a whole and completely different culture. They write with kanji not alphabet, they sit in awkward positions, they place their words in a strange (to us) order, they forge their swords with religious ceremonies, they practice martial arts in front of a shrine and they greet their swords when holding or using them... Anyway, it is common knowledge that traditionaly the Japanese associate swords with religion. The article does nothing more than to describe this association. Strange may be for a "westerner", but totaly normal and logical under a Japanese point of view. I think these differences make Japanese culture so fascinating to many of us Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted January 15, 2011 Report Posted January 15, 2011 Morning all, Screwball theory time: "The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.." (To quote L.P. Hartley) Present might be not totally different : http://www.seki-Japan.com/maturi/kuyo/kuyo.htm Look at the priest, upper right. Sidney Pollack's 1974 movie "The Yakuza" *Great* movie. Takakura Ken almost convinced me to get tattooed (a Fudo) back then. Quote
John A Stuart Posted January 15, 2011 Report Posted January 15, 2011 刀祖祭 Tousomatsuri, sword ancestor festival ? 鞴祭 Hukumatsuri, bellows festival ? In Seki. I wonder if that old cutlery is what is used as old steel for new forging. John Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted January 15, 2011 Report Posted January 15, 2011 刀祖祭 Tousomatsuri, sword ancestor festival ? 鞴祭 Hukumatsuri, bellows festival ? In Seki. I wonder if that old cutlery is what is used as old steel for new forging. John They're going to be destroyed and any possible "evilish spirit" gets "exorcized" (definitively lack a better term). Would like *A LOT* to know more about it. Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted January 15, 2011 Report Posted January 15, 2011 Evening all, We have similar events in the U.K., mostly in the urban areas of our larger cities, we call them Knife Amnesties.... :lol: Cheers Malcolm Quote
Ford Hallam Posted January 16, 2011 Report Posted January 16, 2011 Carlo, you may find various books by Carmen Blacker of interest. I was fortunate to have a lengthy conversation with many years ago, she was a superb teacher and researcher and very highly regarded in Japan. The Catalpa Bow: A Study in Shamanistic Practices in Japan (1975) Collected writings of Carmen Blacker a sample This is quite good too but doesn't really deal too much with swords and spirits. It does tend to be a bit dry and academic in places. Shingon - Japanese Esoteric Buddhism Taiko Yamasaki (Author), Carmen Blacker (Foreword) Quote
Mark Green Posted January 16, 2011 Report Posted January 16, 2011 Hi Gang, Spirituality comes in many forms. I will always admit, that I have picked up a few old Japanese swords, that I have felt a 'power' within. I don't know if it is ancient energies, or, if it is just that perfect 'feel' in my hand, that may trigger something inside me. I have felt this with other old tools of war from the west as well. Guns, as well as swords. Swords, lived with people, as cell phones do today. For the Samurai, that was to the max. If energies, are indeed stored in objects such as these,(which is very likely I suppose) I guess, very negative energies, could effect an object in some way. That energy effecting another??? Not so sure about that. But, I suppose anything is possible. People who are week minded, are easily influenced by many things. But, I'm not sure your Lawyer could get you off on the "The sword made me do it" defence. Mark G Quote
Stephen Posted January 16, 2011 Report Posted January 16, 2011 There was a time all new swords coming into my home were purified with rain water. I think the ceremony was more of a calming effect for me but who knows if evil ki was driven away. Quote
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted January 16, 2011 Report Posted January 16, 2011 @ Ford, thanks. Added to wish list. I'm now cause the ancestral worship of the Dakô-ken and might be these can help under this point of view as well. There was a time all new swords coming into my home were purified with rain water. I think the ceremony was more of a calming effect for me but who knows if evil ki was driven away. At newbies, don't attempt this at home. :D Stephen has a long experience in dealing with swords and as a Viet-Vet he perfectly knows how to master humidity. Newbies should try more dry exorcisms. I use Ozeki Sake (Dry...) But, I'm not sure your Lawyer could get you off on the "The sword made me do it" defence. :lol: :lol: :lol: However I bet that somewhere, someone of those sharks was successfull in such a task as well... Quote
xxlotus8xx Posted January 16, 2011 Author Report Posted January 16, 2011 Very interesting commentary gentlemen and merits further study. If anyone knows of any other reference material please post. In our modern western society where attention span is becoming limited and objects are disposable it is easy to see how quickly forgotten object history has become. Or for that matter sensitivity to "vibes" (for lack of a better term) that objects may possess. A perfect example would is when I brought my teenage daughter to Austria when I was living there I took her to several Gothic and baroque cathedrals that were seeping all kinds of vibes and history from every corner. Or even explaining that the wakizashi I inherited has some 350-500 years of history. But she really couldn't be bothered or so it seemed. Hmmm..maybe I expected to much. But when I was a teenager I think I would have been in awe. Quote
Ian Posted January 16, 2011 Report Posted January 16, 2011 This woodblock print is from a series entitled ‘Gekko zuihitsu’ (‘Miscellaneous Sketches by Gekko’) and dated to the equivalent of about 1887 (the dating is incomplete). The print depicts the swordsmith Sanjo Munechika, who lived during the Heian period (794–1185), forging the blade ‘Ko-Kitsune’ (‘Little Fox’) for the Emperor Ichijo (r. 987–1011). Munechika is assisted by Inari, the Shinto deity regarded as the guardian of smiths and metalworkers. Inari would often appear in the guise of a white fox, and an ethereal group of foxes (the earthly messengers, or manifestations of Inari) are shown here in the background. Around Munechika hang Shinto symbols of purity: a sacred rice-straw rope (shimenawa) with sacred paper (gohei) attached. Japanese blades were thought to be imbued with a spirit reflecting the manner in which they were forged, and swordsmiths worked in near-religious conditions. Purified in mind and body, they invoked divine spirits in their mastery over fire and metal. Ian C Quote
Ford Hallam Posted January 16, 2011 Report Posted January 16, 2011 http://Inari, the Shinto deity regarded as the guardian of smiths and metalworkers. Inari would often appear in the guise of a white fox, Which perfectly explains my attraction to foxy blondes. Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted January 17, 2011 Report Posted January 17, 2011 Good morning Ian & Ford, This may be of interest as the source for Gekko & I believe Utagawa Kuniyoshi's earlier rendition of the scene: http://www.the-noh.com/en/plays/data/program_037.html If you scroll down you have the entire play in English and Japanese. Here's the Kuniyoshi version: http://www.vandaimages.com/results.asp? ... width=1280 Cheers Malcolm Quote
Shepherd Posted January 18, 2011 Report Posted January 18, 2011 Quite so, but, if you believe they do then you will act accordingly. ie. are there cures at Fatima by divine intervention or cures by belief that there are? John Placebo ? The power of suggestion? Quote
Curgan Posted January 18, 2011 Report Posted January 18, 2011 Autosuggestion (especially when combined with ignorance or superstition) is a mighty power... Quote
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