Is there a difference between "kasane" and "thickness"?

[Guest Fungyi]

Hi All,

 

I found the answer on SBG forums, but would like to double-check here. The intersection between the shinogi-ji and the ji is the "shinogi"; the intersection between mune and shinogi-ji, for convenience sake, I will call the "non-iori-mune-ridgeline". The distance a.k.a. thickness between the "non-iori-mune-ridgelines" can either be similar to the distance a.k.a. thickness between the shinogi's, (as in the case with a "low" shinogi i.e. the shinogi-ji's planes are parallel in one dimension), or it can be drastically different (as in the case with "high" shinogi, where the shinogi'ji's are orientated like an isosceles triangle). In most traditional texts, "kasane" refers to what I call the thickness between the "non-iori-mune-ridgeline", but I find that colloquially it's been referred to as thickness between the shinogi's. That's for both Motokasane and Sakikasane.

 

For the purpose of creating a listing, if I don't want my description to seem overly verbose (i.e. "motokasane" is shorter than "thickness at hamachi"), is it okay if I use the word "motokasane" to mean the thickness between the shinogi's?

 

Many thanks for clarification,

Mark M

[nagamaki - Franco]

Motohaba, Sakihaba, Motokasane, Sakikasane, these are typically the measurements concerning widths and thicknesses that should be included when describing a Japanese sword.

added; 01/14/11 http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/measure.htm

[Guest Fungyi]

In other words, does "kasane" refer to "A", or "B"?

 

Sorry for not clarifying earlier (you'd think with technology nowadays I should be able to just poke my finger at my screen, draw something and post it )

 

Thanks,

Mark M

[Nobody]

Kasane means the length of A.

  Quote

Kasane

Thickness, specifically, the thickness of the mune.

Ref. p. 341, The Connoisseur’s Book of Japanese Swords, Kokan Nagayama, translated by Kenji Mishina

[Guest Fungyi]

Yes! That was the first thing I thought of too! (thank you for pointing out that book...I have it too and I guess I really should have referenced that here). But is it just me, or do people seem to use "kasane" and "thickness" interchangeably? Moreover, isn't "thickness" in some ways more important than "kasane"? A big, beafy, heavy Shinto can have a high shinogi, and look ~light~ on paper with a smaller "kasane". But that's not going to make it feel any lighter.... Also, from my humble experiences, the distal taper of the "thickness" is usually linear, whereas the distal taper of the "kasane" can be somewhat exponential, especially if there is funbari (funbari referring to the ~sudden~ increase of mihaba towards the machi's, as opposed to overall profile taper). Kasane can start "thick", then gets thinner and thinner, then stops getting thinner at midway, monouchi or close to yokote, then gets thick again. Which brings up the point, the "kasane" close to the yokote i.e. "saki-kasane" can often be quite thicker than the kasane just a few inches further down towards the machi, because, in the case of high shinogi, the shinogi -ji has to become ~low~ again to make the mitsukado look neater. Because of this ~spreading~ of the ko-shinogi-ji, the "kasane" here within a 2-3 inch area can rapidly increase. Meanwhile, at the machi, the "kasane" is thin to begin with because it is a high-shinogi sword. Therefore, it is possible that the Moto-kasane be very close to the Saki-kasane, suggesting a sword with less distal-taper, when in fact, it could well be a sword with a lot of distal, linear taper.

 

Does this make any sense? Let me know if I should draw another diagram.

 

Thanks,

Mark M

[Eric H]

I see it differently

 

KASANE - 重ね - thickness of blade

 

When referring to the posted design: kasane is the line „B“.

 

That said kasane defines the thickness of a blade... there where the blade is thickest.

 

The cross sections of blades have changed during times. Yamato swords are associated with „high“ shinogi... the shinogi thickness is major to the thickness from mune-kado to mune-kado.

In Shinshinto times f.e. cross-section is usually different, the thickness measured at the shinogi is often less to the mune section.

 

Examples:

 

Yamato Shizu: moto-kasane 0.7 cm

Shinshinto Masayuki: moto-kasane 0.65 cm - saki-kasane 0.51 cm

Moroha-zukuri Tanto Norimitsu: moto-kasane 0.9 cm - saki-kasane 0.75 cm

 

BTW you need a special tool to measure the thickness, I have it.

 

 

Eric

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Kasane 重ね is the thickness of the blade at the mune machi.

[Klop]

Eric,

 

You make me curious, What special tool do we need, and why not just a caliper (in dutch "schuifmaat" which roughly translates to sliding measure) ?

 

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Us ... new_en.gif

 

Greetings,

 

Eric K.

[drbvac]

What he said

[Nobody]

I believe that Kasane (重ね) is defined as the thickness of Mune (棟). The thickness between Shinogi lines (鎬) is specifically called Shinogi-gasane (鎬重ね), which corresponds to “B” in the previous picture.

Refer to the description of the following example.

http://www.l-wise.co.jp/super-jsa/aucti ... ode=detail

 

 

  Eric H said:

……………………………………

Examples:

 

Yamato Shizu: moto-kasane 0.7 cm

Shinshinto Masayuki: moto-kasane 0.65 cm - saki-kasane 0.51 cm

Moroha-zukuri Tanto Norimitsu: moto-kasane 0.9 cm - saki-kasane 0.75 cm

………………

According to the pictures attached in your post, actual terms in the 3rd example are moto-shinogi-gasane (元鎬重) and saki-shinogi-gasane (先鎬重), because the 3rd blade is Moroha-zukuri and it has no Mune.

[reinhard]

You better listen to Moriyama-san. Kasane is defined by line A, i.e. thickness of the mune.

 

In Nagayama's book (p.58) you will find the following sentence: "When there is a substantial difference between the KASANE and the distance between the two shinogi, the shinogi is said to be high."

This statement leaves no room for speculations.

 

BTW Questioning Nagayama Kokan/Mishina Kenji at this stage of learning will get you into serious troubles understanding NihonTo.

 

reinhard

[sanjuro]

Forgive my ignorance, but even if I get roasted for asking I would rather ask a silly question than remain ignorant.

When wishing to do so, How does one then correctly describe the thickness of the blade say for instance in the case of a shobu zukuri blade where the measurement at the shinogi to shinogi (line B in the drawing), is significantly greater than the kasane (line A in the drawing)? What is the correct term for this dimension? :?

 

Edit: Just re-read Moriyama-San's Post......... Shinogi gasane? :D

[reinhard]

  sanjuro said:

Forgive my ignorance

 

No. Why should we? Facts are clear.

 

reinhard

[sanjuro]

Yep...... I asked for that I suppose. :lol:

 

Be nice to me Reinhard...... I just had a birthday and am contemplating time's inexhorable march toward my insipient senility.

[Guest Fungyi]

I'm a believer now! I've never seen the kanji. Now I am convinced (as I should have all along) that "kasane" is in fact "A". Many thanks to all who contributed, especially Mr. Moriyama. I hope I may have the chance to continue to learn much from you, and everyone here.

 

Thanks

Mark

M

[Eric H]

From Facts and Fundamentals...

 

Kasane...this is the measurement of the thickest section of the blade in the same area as the moto-haba (moto-haba is the distance between tha ha-machi and the apex of the mune-machi, Fig. 66) i.e., the measurement at the mune-kado, the point at which the mune meets the upper line of the shinogi-j, Fig. 67.

So far the explanation, but the thickest section in the moto-haba as shown in Fig. 67 is not C-D.

 

Well my understanding of kasane must be revised.

 

Eric

[giuseppepiva]

Hi all. I'm bringing back to life this old topic as I have received today new Juyo papers from last session and my sword is described as 重ね厚く ("thick kasane").

Well the kasane here is... 2mm. It is really a very small maru-mune and then the blade becomes thick at the shinogi (7.6 mmm).

Is anyone aware of the use of the term kasane for the max thickness of the blade?

Giuseppe  

[NewB]

Congrats

 

I always felt that

 

Motogasane is the thickness at the notch and sakigasane is the thickness at the 'yokote'.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong

 

J.

[giuseppepiva]

  On 1/10/2023 at 3:45 PM, Darkcon said:

Congrats

 

I always felt that

 

Motogasane is the thickness at the notch and sakigasane is the thickness at the 'yokote'.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong

 

J.

Expand  

Sure, moto and saki are used for notch and kissaki measures. The problem here is that 2mm of kasane is not "thick" at all, so they refer to the total thickness at the shinogi

[NewB]

  On 1/10/2023 at 3:56 PM, giuseppepiva said:

Sure, moto and saki are used for notch and kissaki measures. The problem here is that 2mm of kasane is not "thick" at all, so they refer to the total thickness at the shinogi

Expand  

 

No sir - At the thickest point of the blade at those locations. The widest points of notch and kissaki on the whole blade. Naginata naoshi could be a deceiving blade for that because of its shape 

Yari is sort of weird too but from the photo - yours looks strong. Probably a naginata?

 

J.

[giuseppepiva]

Looks like a naginata from the back but it's not.

The whole point of this topic was to establish that the term kasane refers to the thickness at the mune, which is also what I have always used the term for. So has it changed lately?

Giuseppe 

[Franco]

 

  On 1/10/2023 at 4:56 PM, giuseppepiva said:

The whole point of this topic was to establish that the term kasane refers to the thickness at the mune, which is also what I have always used the term for. So has it changed lately?

Expand  

 

 

Congratulations!

 

 

After going through a half dozen or so references there is no indication of change that I can find. 

 

https://markussesko.com/2015/02/19/kantei-1-sugata-2/

 

Is that a soe-bi carved into the mune? How far back does it extend?

 

Is that an old habaki? Any plans of having a new habaki and shirasaya made now that this sword is Juyo?

 

Additional images?

 

Thank you.

 

Regards,

 

 

[reinhard]

  On 1/10/2023 at 4:56 PM, giuseppepiva said:

Looks like a naginata from the back but it's not.

The whole point of this topic was to establish that the term kasane refers to the thickness at the mune, which is also what I have always used the term for. So has it changed lately?

Expand  

 

No Guiseppe, it has not.

 

The 2mm broad area you are considering a separate structure, is just the ridgeline.

The measurement of kasane is taken below.

As was suspected before, your blade is most probably not a shinogi-tsukuri katana; more likely a naginata-naoshi blade or the like.

 

Pictures of the munemachi-area whithout habaki would be helpful.

 

reinhard

 

 

[Jacques]

Guiseppe @ 

 

If the shinogi is high the kasane is said to be thick although it is really thin at the level of the mune; you can find some samples in Yamato den. 

[reinhard]

Taking it to the extreme:

Blades made as ken or in moroha-tsukuri shape have a shinogi, but kasane would be zero when measured at the base of a non-existing, separate mune.

This would make no sense.

 

Nevertheless the kasane of blades made in proper shinogi-tsukuri shape (not naginata-naoshi and the like) is measuring the length between the two corners at the base of the mune, not from one shinogi to the other, even if the distance from one shinogi to the opposite shinogi is a little bigger as it is in some examples.

Like it or not: Japanese authorities made this clear.

No reason to discuss definiton of kasane over and over again.

 

reinhard

 

[Ken-Hawaii]

I disagree. we'll always have new member joining, & kasane is one of those terms that isn't perfectly clear, even to experienced members. So bringing it up to clarify is a perfectly good reason.

[Jacques]

Worth reading, 

 

https://markussesko.com/2015/02/19/kantei-1-sugata-2/

[giuseppepiva]

Thank you for all replies.

The sword is a regular shinogi zukuri, not a naginata naoshi or other. Photo attached.

As Jacques pointed out, probably in the case the mune is extremely thin, kasane is measured at the shingi, differently from the normal defition?

@Reinhard: It's NBTHK which is using the definition "thick kasane" on Juyo papers; that's why I was puzzled.

[Graybadger]

Thank you Guiseppe!

The fact that NBTHK (arguably the world's foremost authority on Japanese swords) has used the term 重ね厚く ("thick kasane") to describe your sword is significant information.  The fact that your sword received the high rank of Juyo means that it was subjected to intense scrutiny and careful description.  Your photo of the overall sugata makes it clear that this is not subject to any exceptions in the standards.  Your measurement across the mune is 2mm (distinctly narrow).  Your measurement from shinogi to shinogi is 7.6mm (thick).  While the broadly accepted definition of kasane is to measure across the mune, this highly authoritative source has measured at the shinogi and calls that kasane.  I suggest that to argue about which is "correct" is not useful. 

I will henceforth describe  these as, "Kasane (motogasane) measured at mune: 2mm.  Kasane (motogasane) measured at the shinogi: 7.6mm."  I am more interested in accurate descriptions than arguing about being "right."