Repair question.

[xxlotus8xx]

Greetings,

Does anyone know of a effective way to tighten up how snugly a tsuka fits up against the tsuba? Thicker seppa maybe?

[Rich S]

I use a piece of leather cut to the shape of the seppa; use thin or thicker leather depending on how loose the tsuka may be.

 

Rich S

[drdata]

Good advice from Rich.

 

Might try a test with a matchbook cover (or similar) to get a guage on the thickness; the cover should be about .025', BTW.

 

I have a loose tsuba on a gunto mount and decided to get some extra seppas to "fix" it. Mine only has two, and I have seen some with many so seemed the natural think to do. They were quite thin (from Fred Lhoman), but I found even with one the handle would no longer line up and the saya lock no longer worked.

 

Odd it could be loose and yet such a tight tolerance. I think the issue with mine is lateral as opposed to front/back play; I effectively tried to eliminate by clamping it down with the tsuka, which clearly is not the way to go.

 

Was thinking perhaps make a copper shim (from a waterpipe coupling) as it can be later removed with no marks, but as its not used for iaido I only notice the rattle when applying uchiko to the blade, which I ought not to that often anyway.

 

Regards

[xxlotus8xx]

Thanks guys.

I have tried the leather solution which works pretty good but it seems like kind of a hack. But whatever works right?

My friend has made seppa's for me before and I'll probably just ask him to make me a thicker one. The Tsuba It is REALLY annoying rattling around.

 

:D

[Surfson]

I have a drawer full of seppa and match one up for shape, color and thickness and add it to the stack. It took a couple of decades to collect them though. b

[sanjuro]

If you dont wish to add another seppa for any reason, another way of 'snugging up' the fit is to add a thin washer of soft leather like very thin suede, (although the traditional material would be bamboo leaf) to the inside of the fuchi. Most loose fitting hilt assemblies require less than a millimetre of padding to make them tight again. The leather crushes up as the mekugi is pushed in and its invisible. The loose tsuba and tsuka problem is probably a very old one, and varies season to season as the wood of the tsuka shrinks and expands. On some old swords I have owned there has been a shim like this made of dry bamboo leaf inside the fuchi. I removed one of these once and sure enough the hilt assembly started to rattle so I put it back and the whole thing was tight again.

[moss]

That is a nice tidy way Keith

 

Moss

[Grey Doffin]

Shrinking and expanding of the wood of the tsuka shouldn't have anything to do with the looseness. Wood doesn't shrink noticeably along its length, only in the 2 other dimensions.

Grey

[sanjuro]

Hi Grey.

 

Yes..... You are absolutely correct. Many of the swords we see have had non original seppa added, some of which are not the correct thickness to provide a tight seat.

When I made the observation about shrinkage etc I was thinking more of the overall tightening of the tsuka during winter and sloppiness during summer ( I live in an extreme climate), rather than linear shrinkage and expansion specifically. It has to be said that the best way to fix a sloppy tsuba for instance is to have semegane added to provide a better fit to the nakago. Similarly in the case of a tsuka, a correct thickness seppa would make the whole thing nice and snug. Thats ideal world stuff however.

 

Personally, I'd love to have access to a tosho, a togishi, a kanagushi, a saya shi etc, and the means to retain their services. These small inconveniences would then be easily remedied. (Sigh)........Alas I do not..........

[mizuta]

I picked up a wakizashi latley and it had copper spacers on the habaki.Thay were the same shape as the habaki and about as thick as a sepa 3 in all thay looked old. same colour as the habaki one way of geting the rattle away.

Bernard

[Toryu2020]

Ray -

Be careful if this is your practice sword, that annoying rattling is a signal that your tsuka, mekugi and maybe even your habaki are getting ready to fail. If you find you are adding more and more leather and seppa to your tsuka, take a good hard look at your habaki to see that it is not deformed. Also check that the tsuka is not splitting and the mekugi moving up thru the handle.

 

Older tsuka or poorly made ones will split with heavy practice. Habaki can split or deform and slip up over the ha-machi, especially if you are doing lots of cutting. It is very important that you use the proper equipment and that you check it before and after each use...

-t

[Bugyotsuji]

Nothing to do with the price of fish really, but one so-called knowledgable person, a long-time Japanese collector assured me that looseness was deliberate and to be desired as it was one of the mechanisms absorbing the shock of contact with hard objects. The design of the tsuba, particularly sukashi, was another method of recoil absorption, he was saying.

[mizuta]

I have seen on a lot of old blades the ha machi is almost gone or all gone so the habaki will not lock tight!or if under stress would fail.are these koto blades seen as art and not for use?

Bernard

When polished why is the ha machi not made deeper to make the habaki fit and not be sharp and cut in to the habaki?

Bernard

[sanjuro]

It would be folly I think to be using a koto blade, particularly a blade that is tired and has lost or nearly lost its hamachi, for Iaido practice. Quite apart from being a blade that is more often than not unsuitable for the purpose, the possibility of failure of the habaki, tsuka, mekugi pin etc would be a discouragement. As would the unknown quantity of the blade itself. Why are koto blades unsuitable? A high percentage of Koto blades have previously been used in battle. The stresses and unseen damage from use makes a koto blade a risk. Additionally, most often the proportions and particularly the sori of a koto blade is not conducive to Iai practice since the blades of the koto period were never intended as fast draw weapons. Iaido is a relatively recent art dating only to the late Momoyama/Early Edo period, and therefore a shinto or shin shinto blade would be more appropriate for what is practiced in the West as Iaido and Iajutsu today. A high quality expensive and polished koto blade on the other hand would be utterly wasted and badly used even by a master, on the practice of martial arts, particularly so in the case of tameshigiri.

I think koto blades belong more in the realm of art and artifact.

[cisco-san]

How many seppas are "allowed"?

I saw up to six seppas - has somebody seen more seppas on a blade?

[sanjuro]

Klaus.

 

To answer your question, it is not a matter of how many seppa were allowed. It is more a matter of what was sensible. A Tachi in its original koshirae could have up to six seppa, three pairs, Oseppa, chu seppa and ko seppa. A katana in its original mounts would typically have had only two, the seppa on the saya side of the tsuba being slightly larger than the one on the tsuka side. Wakizashi and tanto also would have originally had only two. The introduction of additional seppa most likely occurred when a thinner tsuba was fitted in place of the original one. Another seppa would be introduced to keep the fittings in a closer fit. Over the years it went downhill from there as additional seppa were accumulated to cater for different tosogu fitted to the original koshirae. Not many of the swords we see today are in their original koshirae, and seppa make for an easy way to fit an otherwise misfitted set of tosogu.

 

[Kevin]

  xxlotus8xx said:

Does anyone know of a effective way to tighten up how snugly a tsuka fits up against the tsuba? Thicker seppa maybe?

 

It depends upon why its loose. You need to take a careful look at the whole assembly and how the bits relate to each other. For example, in some swords the back of the habaki may not be parallel to the seppa and the face of the tsuba. Then again, it might be a problem with the tsuka (in which case you might, in the worst case, need a new tsuka), or someone may have changed a tsuba for a thinner one and so on and so forth. Just putting in another seppa willy-nilly may only solve the problem temporarily. Consequently there isn't really a one-size-fits-all answer.

 

It's actually a fairly common repair request for us.

 

As Toryu said, if it's your practice sword, it needs dealing with immediately. As for deliberate looseness - hogwash. Someone did an engineering study of how the whole assembly works in cutting. The shock should transfer to the outside of the handle, with very little of the force being exerted on the mekugi. The assemble needs to be tight to do this. If it's loose, this can't happen efficiently. The upshot is that you may get the mekugi having to handle too much force, in which case it will break and the blade may go flying out of the tsuka. That sort of accident has happened. It can be quite risky if you're training with others.

 

Kevin

[Ted Tenold]

  Toryu said:

Ray -

Be careful if this is your practice sword, that annoying rattling is a signal that your tsuka, mekugi and maybe even your habaki are getting ready to fail. If you find you are adding more and more leather and seppa to your tsuka, take a good hard look at your habaki to see that it is not deformed. Also check that the tsuka is not splitting and the mekugi moving up thru the handle.

 

Older tsuka or poorly made ones will split with heavy practice. Habaki can split or deform and slip up over the ha-machi, especially if you are doing lots of cutting. It is very important that you use the proper equipment and that you check it before and after each use...

-t

 

 

Listen to the wisdom of this man!

 

I'd like to add that I do a great deal of work for practitioners and have seen some frightful maintenance issues. The "fixes" sometimes did nothing more than make it worse or more hazerdous.

 

I recommend that a working blade in regular use (two sessions per week) have a new tsukamaki about every two years, and more often if in more frequent use or something sounds or feels wrong. The tsukamaki plays an important part in the composite construction of the handle. It's not called "binding" without reason. Also, the handle can be more fully inspected for damage and deterioration that can't be seen otherwise. Rayskin can also crack and deteriorate and not every handle is a maedarekise (fully wrapped) construction. Panels leave the shitaji (foundation) under the ito at the ha and mune to take the brunt of shock and stress of torque and impact. A well installed ito "binds" and reinforces the seams in the foundation.

 

A noisy tsuba signals some form of settlement or migration. Where and why are the questions. How to fix depends on the answer to those two questions. It can be as simple as a cracked or worn mekugi, or as Tom pointed out, more serious issues of a habaki migrating because it (or the blade) is damaged. In the latter case, adding more seppa or leather just imparts the stress back on the habaki to migrate further.

 

Koshirae do not last forever. If you have a working blade, it is just like a car that will need brakes and tires. There are costs associated with working swords most people don't even consider. But like those brakes and tires, if you don't maintain them properly, the results can be catastrophic and lethal. In a class full of your fellow students and teachers, it is irresponsible to use a sword that is unsafe.

[xxlotus8xx]

  Toryu said:

Ray -

Be careful if this is your practice sword, that annoying rattling is a signal that your tsuka, mekugi and maybe even your habaki are getting ready to fail.

-t

Tom: As always very sound advise. But this is not a practical blade for this reason. I have horrid visions of striking a target and splitting the tsuka and having a razor sharp blade go flying *shudder*.

 

And to all others thank you for the advise and tips! From a external examination the habaki is a good fit and I suspect the mekugi is worn or a poor fit and/or the seppa(s); (2 currently) is not ideal for the assembly. The seppa that sits on top of the fuchi looks really thin. Like smaller than 1/20th of an inch.

[cisco-san]

  sanjuro said:

Klaus.

 

To answer your question,......................

 

Many thanks for answering my question

[xxlotus8xx]

So just to follow up the fix was to swap the seppa's and re-seat the menugi.

Thanks again folks.

:D

[AMERICAN-FALCONER]

i have a copper hilt type 35 shin gunto and the hilt is somewhat loose. any remedy to this?

[Derek]

http://www.aoijapan.com/how-to-make-leather-seppa