Where were the yari?

[Baka Gaijin]

Evening all,

 

A word of caution regarding some items found in 19th Century sourced collections.

 

Years ago in one of the major rooms in London, a screen came up for sale which was literally bristling with every sort of arcane Japanese polearm blade imaginable plus a few more; to top it it was flanked with a host of tsuba.

 

Great find, greater estimate or its worth, even greater potential for the commission; until it was discovered that they were all half side castings.

 

Can we ascribe some of the items we encounter outside of the repositories as artistic "caprices" being hastily constructed for western dealers hungry for the ever more exotic?

 

Just a thought

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[estcrh]

 

Can we ascribe some of the items we encounter outside of the repositories as artistic "caprices" being hastily constructed for western dealers hungry for the ever more exotic?

 

Just a thought

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

Malcolm, I think you can question the provenance of all the very strange unusual looking yari seen outside of Japan. I have yet to see any detailed history of these items or detailed close up modern photos, good question.

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all

 

Here's an interesting link:

 

http://www.bowdoin.edu/mongol-scrolls/

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[estcrh]

Malcolm, if you look at all the pictures on the scroll you notice a few interesting details. The samurai seem to be carrying only one sword. There seems to be a complete lack of yari on the Japanese side but you do see naginata being used. The mongols have yari in large amounts. You can see shields being used on one of the Japanese boat scenes, I read that this was due to the samurai on boats that were attacking the Mongols went without armor and did not have the large sode to protect them from arrows. There are a lot of bows and archery equipment in all the scenes, notice all the tsurumaki being worn, the round woven bow string holder, no accomplished archer would be without one, and huge amounts of arrows. I see what looks like a boat hook or two for pulling your boat up along side another boat. The horse related equipment seems the be much the same as in the Edo period. Some very interesting scrolls, thanks for the link.

[Klop]

Hi Piers,

 

When I saw your yari chest I instantly thought of the toolbox shown in the book "Japanese woodworking tools -their tradition, spirit and use" by mr. Toshio Odate (which I can recommend to those who like handtools, especially the cutting kinds!).

 

Allthough the lid is somewhat different the recessed panels acting as grips are the same. Purpose too; the safe keeping of high grade steel.

 

The picture is bad, I didn't want to break this softcover's back, but it shows enough I guess.

 

 

While I'm at it something I was wondering about; yari mekugi...

I have a few yari and what they have in common is that the mekugi-ana usually is small to very small, just about 2 mm. Off course a yari nakago has less meat than a sword so the ana just can't be large.

But to fit this hole the mekugi is more like a toothpick than a proper mekugi, and thus weak.

So the question emerges; was bamboo traditionally used or maybe a (permanently riveted) Iron mekugi??

 

Kind regards,

Eric K.

[Baka Gaijin]

Evening all,

 

Concerning Eric. K's observation re the relative size of mekugi in Yari v Katana.

 

Here's another of my Screwball Theories.....

 

I reckon it's all to do with dynamics of motion & Newtonian Physics.

 

The Sword travels in mostly forward arcs which encourage the blade to exit the Tsuka, thus a large mekugi (or two) is necessary to hold the blade back.

 

The Yari however involves itself mainly in thrusting movements which encourage the blade to move back into the shaft.

 

QED

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric K, yes, I agree with your observation as to the similarities between the two types of box. Carpenters' boxes are even today traditionally made with that kind of distinctive lid. One end slides under one of the two upper overhanging slats to help lock it in place. Many thanks for the pics.

 

As to the yari mekugi, a good observation. Malcolm's theory makes sense. I wonder if there is more to this, apart from balance and aesthetics? Even a small bamboo pin, especially if made of susu-dake, can be almost as hard as iron, and firmly within the confines of a Kashi yari shaft, with the tip of the nakago resting against the interior back surface, nigh-on impossible to snap.

[Mark Green]

Bamboo is very tough. I have used my replica yari, that is set up with one ana, vs 'you name it'. Never have broken a mekugi. I have cracked the pole many times though.

If a deep sword, or polearm hit, weakened the split area where the nakago rests, it is easy to crack the rice glue open. Hence the reason for multiple rings, of metal, usually copper, in that area. As well as hemp twine wrapping. Plus a good cap fitting is a must. If your cap got crushed, and the Yari was able to slide back due to other damage, you could maybe break a mekugi pin.

Mark G

[Klop]

Gents,

your reactions are in the same line and I totally agree; on the forward stroke into a target I even think there's almost no force on the mekugi itself. If properly fitted the wedge-shaped nakago will set itself to the walls of the channel and prevent a backward motion of the blade, the tip of the nakago rests at the bottom of the channel and the kerakubi rests against the tip of the pole. No problem there.

 

I was more concerned about the pulling stroke while the blade was stuck in a target. At that moment all that's between keeping and losing the tip is the mekugi. On second thought, on te way in the blade created room for itself and being sharp and smooth it should be able to come out with less effort. With a jumonji used on the pulling stroke the forces on the mekugi would be larger.

 

Maybe this is why some yari have longer nakago with more than one mekugi, several times thin = 1 x thick (besides the function to strengthen the pole against being cut).

 

Kind regards,

Eric K.

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all

 

Here's something serious from the Budokan

 

 

Check out from 3.14, one of their old spears broke during the embu, though they do not show the moment, it clearly shows the position of breakage.

 

And here's a bit of entertainment on a Sunday......

 

 

And,,,,,,,

 

 

(The voices, they made me do it....... )

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[Bugyotsuji]

Many thanks. I enjoyed those. Was Japan created from a Yari, or from a Hoko? :?

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Piers,

 

I think our host is "sampling" from Tom Cruise.....

 

(ref: Timothy Spall - Voice Over)

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[Bugyotsuji]

Spent the morning playing with a very clean example of a 管槍　早槍　Kudayari. Nice long shaft. Ended up probably buying it. (Blade rusty though. Tempted to have it polished...)

[Mark Green]

Hi Piers,

I love the tube-spear. Can you post some pics of the slide part of the pole.

They can deliver great force, and penetration power.

They were banned from our SCA combat due to that fact. Very dangerous!

You could break peoples ribs,through armor, with a 3 in. padded tip.

Mark G

Pics of the blade would be great too

[Bugyotsuji]

Mark, I'll put up a couple of shots later. The blade looked like nothing special so I didn't take any close shots of it. Watch this space...

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all

 

http://www.koryu.com/library/harmstrong1.html

 

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[Bugyotsuji]

Thank you Malcolm, I enjoyed reading that and seeing one in action.

 

Here is a photo of a page in a Japanese armour encyclopedia. The spear looks very like this one, with brass pins to lock the tube shut, which become part of the spread tsuba when it is open and in use.

[Bugyotsuji]

Forgive the poor quality of these. They were taken very much as an afterthought just as I was leaving...

[Jean]

Looks almost like an RPG :D

[Bugyotsuji]

Looks almost like an RPG :D

 

LOL useful in Afghanistan? :lol:

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

EDIT same pic of your book but from a different source.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Hmmm... nice find, Carlo. Perhaps there are so few of them available to photograph, and that one is relatively clear, so people used the same pic... without too much worry about copyright?

[Mark Green]

Hi Gang,

It seems strange, that the slide mechanism would be on a ridged pole.

I would tend to believe that the slide came from another rig. The ridges would make it a bugger to use, and would be rubbed away in short order, if it would work at all. Oh, nevermind, I just saw that the lower part of the pole IS smooth DEH!

The most 'period' rig I made, was using a split piece of bamboo, that was fitted to an oak pole,re- glued, and hemp tie-banded. It was very smooth, to operate correctly. It did heat up quite a bit with a lot of use. The metal rig would make and easy switch to any yari pole you picked up on the battle field. As long as you could slide it on, and the pole was smooth, you could rock-and-roll.

Plus, it took some time to make. That is likely why they were not widely adapted. But in the hands of a specialized unit that was trained in their use, they would be as effective as an RPG. You could move up and blow a hole in the enemy line in short order.

The blade does look very interesting...

Mark

[estcrh]

Piers, I searched for pictures of Kudayari and yours are among the very few available, thanks. Do you know how long the entire yari is?

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, I didn't measure it, but somewhere between three and four meters I should imagine. Eleven or twelve feet...(?) The present owner mentioned he was thinking of cutting it down, while preserving the essential functions. I begged him not to as I have the perfect corridor for displaying it as is. He says he will let me have it when I come back in the early spring. Hoping it's still uncut.

[estcrh]

Piers, at that length it may be quite old, I hope it stays intact. Some more pictures I hope if you acquire it eventually.

[estcrh]

Eric, The spear-head you illustrate is Chinese. There is a whole bunch of these in the Armouries collection with others that are even wackier.

Ian

Maybe Ian or someone else can answer this question....I have seen a lot of pictures of old Chinese spears but I can not remember seeing exactly how the socket of an authentic Chinese spear was attached to the pole, did they have 1 hole or 2 like a Japanese socketed spear? The only supposedly authentic Chinese spear I was able to see had no hole in the socket at all, the owner said that pitch was used to attach the pole but I have not been able to find any proof of that statement.

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, I have one Fukuro-yari with two mekugi/meneji, and one with one. So the Japanese had both types for a start.

 

Your comment about pitch is interesting as I have been trying to find a perfect solution to the socket on my old Chinese three-barrelled gun. Now, if I wound twine around the pole tip, and dipped it in pitch and pushed it in firmly, and then used the ends of the twine out through the sleeve slit to tie it all secure... now that would be a good scenario.

 

Oh, and the answer to your question about the length of the Kuda-yari = 二間　2 Ken.

 

This school, according to the excellent link above, fought with long poles right through Edo, so I am not sure that length alone will be an accurate indication as to age. Indeed, the brass mechanism looks to my eye to be late Edo, but what do I know?

[estcrh]

Eric, I have one Fukuro-yari with two mekugi/meneji, and one with one. So the Japanese had both types for a start.

 

Oh, and the answer to your question about the length of the Kuda-yari = 2 Kan.

 

This school, according to the excellent link above, fought with long poles right through Edo, so I am not sure that length alone will be an accurate indication as to age. Indeed, the brass mechanism looks to my eye to be late Edo, but what do I know?

Piers, thanks for the answers, I have not seen a socketed (fukuro) yari with only one mekugi, thats good to know. As for the yari pole length, I was going by what I have seen for sale and usually with naginata and yari a very long pole indicated a older blade (but not always of course). Now with the extra expense $$$$$ of shipping any pole over a certain length the long poles get cut down. Unless you can find one already in your country it is almost impossible to get an original long pole anymore.

[IanB]

Eric, Piers, As far as I recall, the Chinese spears are nailed to the shafts through holes in the socket. I know there are a couple of naginata type (of the type depicted being carried by Kwan Yu [spelling?]), where there is a slit in the shaft and the blade has a tang that fits in and is held by a rivet with washers each side. The slit is then filled with a separte piece of twood glued in each side. These have a cast brass dragon's head at the top of the shaft with the blade issuing from the mouth.

The staff weapons in the Armouries have a remarkable origin. They were supposed to have been ordered by a European lady from an armourer in Nanking, the originals being preserved in a temple there. Apparently two sets were made , the originals being destroyed in bombing. Subsequently, one complete set arrived at the Tower of London, followed by the major art of the second.

Ian