Where were the yari?

[Bugyotsuji]

Just read a little article last night before switching out the lights that suggests the adoption of yari had something to do with battle tactics. With a Naginata/Nagamaki, you spun around and slashed in all directions. Old-style fighting. As the battlefield became unidirectional, with the enemy massed and to the front, then ranked use of the long Yari spear against cavalry became essential. Two types of spear were mentioned. Very long plain ones with slippery handles to allow jabbing, ie gripping with the right fist and sliding through the left. The actual Ho or blade did not need to be large, often 5cm was sufficient. Shorter and more decorative high quality spears were carried by cavalry. The long spear gained a new lease of life when matchlocks appeared as they could sandwich and protect gunners whilst they were reloading. (You have a nice life-size display of this in the Royal Armouries, Ian.)

 

The article mentions that the Kanji that we commonly use for Yari 槍 is actually wrong. With the tree 'hen' figure on the left this character should properly be read Hoko. The proper Kanji for what we think of as Yari should be 鑓 or 鎗 with the 'hen' for metal.

 

As an afterthought when I was switching out the lights, this increase of long spears must have coincided with mass breeding of war horses and purpose-built mounted warrior units.

 

The article is in Japanese, but I can post a photo of the page and provide a translation a) if you are interested and b) if I do not contravene copyright.

Ikkojin 3 March 2010 'Sengoku Busho Nyumon' Special Edition. KK Best Sellers, Tokyo p.107

[estcrh]

If I had known than cross bow was that rare I would have tried a little harder to buy it, it sold for around $300. I would guess with how important the bow was in Japan that this one was made for someone with a handicap which would prevent them from using a regular bow, elderly or infirm etc, something in that direction. Ian is right about the bow strings, I have one thats quite old and whatever material they are made from its not the strongest by far. I would have been hard to produce a really powerful war type crossbow with that kind of a string I would think.

 

Now about yari. I see pictures of yari with half moon blades that are supposed to be Japanese but they look a lot like the yari I posted that Ian identified as Chinese, so I was wondering how could someone tell these Chinese influenced yari from the actual Chinese ones. Some of the supposed Japanese yari have half moon shaped blades running parallel to the main blade and some are even socketed like the yari I pictured. Are there any Japanese yari that actually used the half moon shaped blade. http://www3.sympatico.ca/apc/en-hast.htm

 

 

[IanB]

Eric, An obvious pointer to Chinese is the use of a socket rather than a tang. From my experience, most Chinese staff weapons have round, rather thick shafts and are fastened by a rivet throught the socket and the shaft. Another minor feature is that the socket sometimes has a band of filed decoration - like a series of triangular flats that alternate. Of course a few Japanese weapons have sockets - most abundant being beautifully waisted little four-sided yari made for the Tokugawa during the Bakamatsu.

Ian

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

If I had known than cross bow was that rare I would have tried a little harder to buy it, it sold for around $300. I would guess with how important the bow was in Japan that this one was made for someone with a handicap which would prevent them from using a regular bow, elderly or infirm etc, something in that direction.

 

Maybe. Or maybe it simply was your lucky day when you missed it.

 

This one (but with Nakago, not Fukuro) should be a Tsuki-gata-Kamayari. Belongs to the "Sasumata" family.

 

 

This one should be a Bishamon-gata-Jumonji-yari. As her name suggest, it's taken from chinese iconography of Bishamonten. Even if some might have been produced in Japan during Edojidai

they'r not of Japanese origins nor intended for combat.

 

 

Last one you post, if not a tourist piece, has a shape that spans from China to Indochina, not Japan. AFAIK.

 

[Mark Green]

Crossbows!!! puoooweeee!

Hi Gang,

I doubt that any self respecting Samurai would be seen using a crossbow.

A late period assassin/ninja maybe, if you believe in those kind of things.

 

Jumonji yari, while in mho, are the best looking weapons ever made my man, would likely have real problems in large melee combat. They would be to likely to get caught on things, resulting in the death of it's user.

Now, for a single combat yari fight, give me a Jumonji any day. They cut very well on the return, as well as the thrust.

 

Mark G

[John A Stuart]

Hi Mark, although I hate the use of any projectile weapon (after all the years of training to be cut down by an arrow, bolt, rock or projectile seems futile) I wouldn't get too caught up in the honour on the battlefield thing a la Hagakure and such. If it worked and gave an edge it would be used. Remember how the cavalry of Kai were decimated by protected volley fire from teppo-ashigaru after Shingen's death. No honour there, but, effective. Switching sides in the middle of battle, as, Sekigahara. Lots of examples. Even Chushingura supposedly an honour adauchi had underlying less than honourable reasons. Chivalry in any context was always a semi-fiction. John

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

If it worked and gave an edge it would be used.

 

 

Where have I heard the term "bullshitdo" ?

 

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=182

[ububob]

No need to apologize for that English, it's right on the money! :D

[Mark Green]

" Chivalry in any context was always a semi-fiction. John"

 

There is no place for Chivalry on the battlefield. In a real fight, winning, and staying alive, are the only things that matter.

Chivarly, is an after the fight right of the victor, or not.

 

Mark G

[Bugyotsuji]

Whoever placed a Kikuchi blade on the end of a bamboo pole and tipped the balance in battle may just have started a trend. The point of a spear, I was told, was to thrust up for the enemies' eyes. From bamboo to wood, and from Tanto, to Yoroidoushi, to dedicated steel spear blade may then have been a logical progression, diverging from Naginata/Nagamaki. Since the handles of Naginata/Nagamaki were oval in cross-section, the idea of a round pole must have been new and outside the box. On a lathe, round cross-section may indeed have been easier to fashion. Wood would have caused fewer splinters than bamboo, but could be made just as slippery for sliding thrusts.

 

As with Kazu-uchi-mono for swords, it must have been easy for smiths to mass produce short spear blades. The straighter they are, the easier they will fit into a box too. In fact I have just such a box at home, with the 'proper' (?) character for Yari written on it, and I can imagine it padded with straw and being gradually filled by smiths roundabout the forge.

 

Most of the above is the product of a modicum of input plus a fertile mind and not much more.

[estcrh]

 

As with Kazu-uchi-mono for swords, it must have been easy for smiths to mass produce short spear blades. The straighter they are, the easier they will fit into a box too. In fact I have just such a box at home, with the 'proper' (?) character for Yari written on it, and I can imagine it padded with straw and being gradually filled by smiths roundabout the forge.

 

Piers, do I have to ask for a picture of this yari box?

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, I have posted it before, but despite a search couldn't find it. (May be on the old site.)

 

PS Just found it on this page in the Edo Period corner. Fuzzy shots and the explanation Kanji have gone strange.

This part of the thread must have come from the old site and the Kanji were lost.

It could be so-so 'Yari nest', 鎗蔵　(?) or Morita San suggested possibly a name, Yorizo?

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2554&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=150

 

It's larger than it looks there. Will get some better shots this evening.

[IanB]

Piers, Yes, I suspect you are correct in saying that the heads for yari could be knocked out very quickly. We did section an old very rusty yari head at the Museum and found it was made from one piece of steel. Sadly it had slipped down behind a packing case in the store at the Tower of London and had lain there for possibly the best part of a century, against an outside wall rusting gently. It had been a fabulous thing, about 14" long, of waisted 4 sided shape but with a shortened tang. It was obvious from the section that there was no core steel.

Ian Bottomley

[Bugyotsuji]

The packing case had been there for 100 years, I am guessing! :lol: (Unless you are saying 'we' in the Royal sense! ... but still the Yari would have had a tempered edge, right?

 

Here are some pics of the box. I am tempted to use it as a work bench.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Your's not an house, is an armory...

[Bugyotsuji]

Your's not an house, is an armory...

 

Carlo, that's my daughter's bedroom.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Cool. My daughter too dislikes Barbie. :lol:

[estcrh]

Captain Frank Brinkley described hoko yari as being "sometimes wave-edged like a Malay kris." After doing some research on Captain Brinkley I do not think its entirely reasonable to hastily dismiss his description as a mistake etc. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." His description of hoko yari as "At the point of junction of blade and hilt a sickle-shaped horn projected on one side or on both" accurately describes the hoko yari that Carlo posted, its just possible that some hoko yari had a wavy edge just as he said. 40 yrs of living in Japan and marrying into a samurai family may have given him a access to knowledge that we just cant find presently.

 

 

 

Francis Brinkley (30 December 1841 – 12 October 1912[1]) was an Anglo-Irish newspaper owner, editor and scholar who resided in Meiji period Japan for over 40 years. He was also known as Frank Brinkley or as Captain Francis Brinkley. In 1866, on his way to Hong Kong, Brinkley visited Nagasaki and witnessed a duel between two samurai warriors. Once the victor had slain his opponent he immediately covered him in his haori, and 'knelt down with hands clasped in prayer'. It is said that Brinkley was so impressed by the conduct of the Japanese warrior that this enticed him to live in Japan permanently.

 

Life in Japan

 

In 1867 Captain Brinkley returned to Japan, never again to return home. Attached to the British-Japanese Legation, and still an officer in the Royal Artillery, he was assistant military attache to the Japanese Embassy. He resigned his commission in 1871 to take up the post of foreign advisor to the new Meiji government, and taught artillery techniques to the new Imperial Japanese Navy at the Naval Gunnery School. He mastered the Japanese language soon after his arrival, and both spoke and wrote it well.

In 1878 he was invited to teach mathematics at the Imperial College of Engineering, which later became part of Tokyo Imperial University, remaining in this post for two and a half years.

In the same year he married Tanaka Yasuko, a daughter of a samurai from the Mito clan. Technically, the marriage was illegal under Japanese law, but Brinkley managed to legalise it by appealing to the British judiciary, with the help of some influential friends. They were the parents of two daughters and a son, Jack Ronald Brinkley (1887–1964), who also contributed greatly to Japanese culture and education.

In 1881 until his death he owned and edited the Japan Mail newspaper (later merged with the Japan Times), receiving financial support from the Japanese government and consequently maintaining a pro-Japanese stance. The newspaper was perhaps the most influential and widely read English language newspaper in the far East.

 

 

Japan and China: Japan, its history, arts, and literature By Frank Brinkley

 

 

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA156& ... utput=text

 

 

 

Spear and halberd were among the weapons of the ancient Japanese as well as sword and bow. The oldest form of spear {hokd) was derived from China. Its handle measured about six feet and its blade eight inches, the latter being sometimes leaf-shaped, sometimes wave-edged like a Malay kris. At the point of junction of blade and hilt a sickle-shaped horn projected on one side or on both, showing that the prime object of the weapon was to thrust back an enemy. In fact the hoko served almost exclusively for guarding palisades and gates. In the fourteenth century a true lance (yari) came into use. Its length varied greatly and it had a hog-backed blade, about five inches long, tempered so finely as almost to rival the sword in quality. This too was a Chinese type, and, like the hoko, its first employment did not extend beyond operations of defence, but in the latter part of the Military epoch it acquired greater importance.

 

 

Malay kris

[IanB]

Eric, Thank you for the quotes. I do have the full set of Brinkley's books but find them rather dull. The guy had every opportunity to ask questions but didn't. The hoko he refers to are those in the Shosoin and hence still very influenced by China, if not made there. I have seen one long yari dating from about the Momoyama that had a blade that, whilst not exactly wavy, had sort of notches along both edges. Very odd but maybe done to hide chipping.

Ian

[estcrh]

Eric, Thank you for the quotes. I do have the full set of Brinkley's books but find them rather dull. The guy had every opportunity to ask questions but didn't. The hoko he refers to are those in the Shosoin and hence still very influenced by China, if not made there. I have seen one long yari dating from about the Momoyama that had a blade that, whilst not exactly wavy, had sort of notches along both edges. Very odd but maybe done to hide chipping.

Ian

Dull is a good description but full of interesting information, to bad he was not a photographer. With very old yari being so heavily influenced by Chinese blades it makes me wonder how many of these are seen but not even recognized as being Japanese due to lack of known examples, since they would not look like the typical yari that we are used to seeing. Is there any known evidence that Brinkley was correct in his description of the use of hoko yari "the hoko served almost exclusively for guarding palisades and gates."

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Is there any known evidence that Brinkley was correct in his description of the use of hoko yari "the hoko served almost exclusively for guarding palisades and gates."

 

Many, already back then, were meant for votive functions. Others are as close to a Fukuro yari as you can think of, so they *could* have been used in any fighting context.

 

With very old yari being so heavily influenced by Chinese blades it makes me wonder how many of these are seen but not even recognized as being Japanese due to lack of known examples, since they would not look like the typical yari that we are used to seeing.

 

Keyword : We. The chances are close to zero cause there are scholars that got enough knowledge to relief us from such an hard task. As Ian have suggested the problem is not the shape, but where they were produced. *This* is very hard to judge and usually works the other way around i.e. how many *chinese* blades are considered Japanese while actually produced in China (almost exclusively referred to Jokoto).

 

Eric, I'm afraid of the future use you'll do of the quote "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

 

I've not read the source by Captain Frank Brinkley, but if he describes Hoko from the Shōsōin, then definitely he is wrong.

*All* the blades preserved in Shōsōin are described and pictured in detail, both sides, large dimensions, in "Sword Blades in the Shōsōin", edited by Shōsōin Office, The Nihon Keizai Shimbun,

Tokyo 1974, that's the source I'm referring to and the pictures I post comes from. I'm not aware of any Hoko with a shape similar to the captain's description preserved anywhere in Japan.

However "there is always somebody that have a larger library then yours...."

 

In an academical discussion, descriptions by voyagers and sailors have to be taken with a pinch of salt. They often mixed up things either consciouly or not, for different reasons.

My opinion is that Captain Brinkley has never seen the Hoko in question but only heard of them and mixed its description by the natives with the description of the ones of the chinese blades he actually saw elsewhere.

The blade closest to a Keris treasured in the Shōsōin has no lateral arms and is still far to be "wavy". Hereunder a partial pic (cause original huge dimensions overwelming my scan) that's not pictured in Knutsen's book.

 

[IanB]

Carlo, The curious weapon you illustrate is, if memory serves me, known as a 'hand spear' or teboko and have quite short shafts. Just why they have such a strangely shaped blades I cannot imagine. What for example was the purpose of the 'lump' or 'hump' along the back? There is another in the Shosoin with a blade that has a definite kink in it. Despite the odd shape they look utilitarian so they must have had a use. Despite this, I think I can see that these oddities could evolve into naginata.

 

This has been a facinating thread. Summarising, the picture seems to be something like: There were perfectly ordinary spears around in the Nara period with socketted heads and in some cases side-hooks that seem to have derived from Chinese originals. There were also oddities like these teboko that were probably the ancestor of the naginata, which weapon became prominent in the Heian, Kamakura and Nambokucho periods. Note that by this time these weapons are tanged, like the teboko, not socketted. Simple spears may have been around at this time, like the kikuchi yari, but they were not given any recognition because they were regarded as 'inferior' in some way. Finally, during the Muromachi, the true spear begins to appear in larger numbers, culminating in their widespread use during the Sengoku Jidai. Interesting.

Ian Bottomley

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Carlo, The curious weapon you illustrate is, if memory serves me, known as a 'hand spear' or teboko

 

Right, Ian. It's a Teboko.

 

As per ancestors of Naginata or Nagamaki,hard to say, as always with these so ancient items.

 

On a similar subject I'm puzzled by the way the blade referred to "Seven Branched Sword" is explained in "Kodaito to Tetsu no Kagaku" :

 

[estcrh]

 

Keyword : We. The chances are close to zero cause there are scholars that got enough knowledge to relief us from such an hard task.

 

 

Eric, I'm afraid of the future use you'll do of the quote "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

 

 

In an academical discussion, descriptions by voyagers and sailors have to be taken with a pinch of salt. They often mixed up things either consciouly or not, for different reasons.

 

Carlo, nice pictures and information, as for the scholars, unfortunately the scholars are not looking at what comes up for sale in the world for the most part, and since the whole source for information on this subject is seemingly from a single repository there are undoubtedly examples floating around unidentified or misidentified by under informed collectors and probably in some institutions as well.

As for the Captain....I would hardly put him in th category of a "voyagers and sailor"....If he wrote his book in the early 1900s would he have had access to the Shosoin collection? Of course he could have been repeating something he heard etc. I just think that with so little information and images available on these early spears his description should not be totally dismissed.

And Carlo....yes..you should be afraid..very afraid......OF THE FUTURE USE!!!!!

[Bugyotsuji]

How is it explained, Carlo?

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

How is it explained, Carlo?

 

Piers, guess you're referring to the "Seven branched". It's also refererred as "Seven branched spear", even if it has been linked to written evidences talking about a sword (supposed to be the Nanatsusaya no Tachi in Nihon Shoki). Yet another thing that is in my "to do" lists but not near the top. It's not the only shafted oddity from ancient times (wherever they come from) :

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I have seen one long yari dating from about the Momoyama that had a blade that, whilst not exactly wavy, had sort of notches along both edges. Very odd but maybe done to hide

 

Reminds me of the last one hereunder. Museo di Cà Pesaro, Venice.

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

and since the whole source for information on this subject is seemingly from a single repository there are undoubtedly examples floating around unidentified or misidentified by under informed collectors and probably in some institutions as well.

 

To be honest, no the matter is not from a single repository but from a great deal of literature available about Japanese spears.

However, I agree. Under informed collectors are a big problem, especially for themselves.

 

as for the scholars, unfortunately the scholars are not looking at what comes up for sale in the world for the most part

 

Great chances left to the above mentioned collectors.

 

Guess I've made my time on this thread, however would like to remember you another interesting say from one of the smartest heretics I've ever met :

 

"Rigorous reasoning from inapplicable assumptions yields the world's most durable nonsense."

[estcrh]

 

It seems to me that many of the yari in this thread would not be identified as being Japanese by their looks alone, and certainly when not mounted on an identifiable pole. Its reasonable to assume that there are other shapes and types not pictured here and possibly not yet identified as being Japanese or used by the Japanese by those "scholars". Again nice pictures.

[Bugyotsuji]

Some of the best and most unusual examples have found their way into collections abroad. Wonderful to see these, Carlo.