tempered knife

[werner]

Hi,

 

Just wanted to share some interesting pics....showing a differentially tempered knife.....wondered if this was done by a WW2 smith after the occupation or who would create things like that? Are these common?

 

Thanks heaps for the feedback.

 

Jock

[werner]

...one more....

 

Jock

[Tsugio Kawakami]

Nice deba. Actually, a good many cooking knives (Especially fish knives) show hamon. Both my Kikuichi and Masamoto yanagiba show hamon.

[hybridfiat]

Hi there. I think you'll find that this is not differencially hardened but a laminated blade. A white or blue steel slip is sandwiched between 2 slips of soft steel and forged to a knife shape then ground to reveal the "hamon. Very common, I have 3, all made by smiths recently in Japan. Some have a suminagashi (running water) appearance due to folding the soft outer steel 4 or 5 times before forging the 3 pieces together. Nice knives but the 'damascus' appearance often disappears when the knife is sharpened with western stones. Natural Japanese stones will reveal it again.

[Tsugio Kawakami]

I think this one may actually be differentially hardened.

 

Single sided knives like deba, yanagiba, takohiki, etc. are often made in ways that utilize hari-hagane (?) construction, but when they are, they generally don't show any color gradient within the "hamon" area. This one actually appears to have nioiguchi as opposed to a weld line.

 

Looking again, my Masamoto is differentially hardened. The Kikuichi is laminated.

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all:

 

Here's how most kitchen knives are made:

 

 

 

 

Don't try this at home

 

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm

[werner]

Hi there. I think you'll find that this is not differencially hardened but a laminated blade. A white or blue steel slip is sandwiched between 2 slips of soft steel and forged to a knife shape then ground to reveal the "hamon. Very common, I have 3, all made by smiths recently in Japan. Some have a suminagashi (running water) appearance due to folding the soft outer steel 4 or 5 times before forging the 3 pieces together. Nice knives but the 'damascus' appearance often disappears when the knife is sharpened with western stones. Natural Japanese stones will reveal it again.

 

 

Hi Steve,

 

I have to disagree....I'm but a novice when it comes to nihonto, but I have collected knives acutally custom made knives for more than 30 years....I know about lamination/damascus/sanmei etc etc...but only with tempered blades have I come across a real temperline...please excuse my limitations in getting pics that show appropriately the temperline etc I can see in this blade....if my ability to take pics would be better you would have to agree on this one.

 

I'd appreciate any link that could educate somebody like me to present his objects better in pic form.

 

Jock

[Shepherd]

It's a laminated blade-no hamon.

 

Traditionally, a "honyaki" will have a hamon very high on the blade .

Here are a few examples of what I mean

 

it would be a waste of time and effort to produce a a deba with such a low hamon considering the ammount of sharpening thats done as maintenance. You would end up with a blade with no hardened portion and a very large soft bladelike object.

 

Ok, so how do I know ? I made this about 5 years ago

 

 

after showing it to a few guys at a local sushi place, they schooled me on what was wrong with it. Now I make knives for their resturaunt.

 

Sean Shepherd

[Tsugio Kawakami]

Sean,

 

The blades you show as examples are gyuto, and it would make sense for them to have really tall hamon. They are quite thin when compared to many other Japanese knives (like the deba in question), and do not often take well to accidental contact with bones, hard impact and dropping. It's important for a thin knife that it can be repaired without damaging functionality, so having a deeper hamon on a more fragile blade makes sense.

 

As for more specialized knives like deba, yanagiba, etc. you'll find that hamon depth varies. I'm not talking about kasumi (laminated) blades, but actual honyaki pieces that display hamon. My Masamoto has a hamon of only half the width of the ji, only touching the shinogi at the kaeri. It has a very long hardened point, but the hamon for the length of the ha is not unusually deep.

 

While this blade in question could certainly be kasumi deba, I feel it is not. Either way, hamon depth shouldn't be the deciding factor.

 

Also, if someone is polishing a deba back very so far as to need a hamon that rises to the mei, they're doing something terribly wrong.

[Shepherd]

I know they are gyuto, I was meerely showing an example of how the hamon are placed.

i can also tell it's a laminated blade by how the steel is above the lamination. I'd be interested in knowing who made the deba you own. Every example I've seen and handled have had a hamon above the shinogi. I know professionals that will go through a couple of knives a year, and having the hardened portion of the blade that small would only cause them to buy more often. The difference in construction could be simply a different train of thought. Regardless, I would still enjoy seeing a pic of yours.

edit: I should have said "mizu honyaki"

Sean Shepherd

Sean,

 

The blades you show as examples are gyuto, and it would make sense for them to have really tall hamon. They are quite thin when compared to many other Japanese knives (like the deba in question), and do not often take well to accidental contact with bones, hard impact and dropping. It's important for a thin knife that it can be repaired without damaging functionality, so having a deeper hamon on a more fragile blade makes sense.

 

As for more specialized knives like deba, yanagiba, etc. you'll find that hamon depth varies. I'm not talking about kasumi (laminated) blades, but actual honyaki pieces that display hamon. My Masamoto has a hamon of only half the width of the ji, only touching the shinogi at the kaeri. It has a very long hardened point, but the hamon for the length of the ha is not unusually deep.

 

While this blade in question could certainly be kasumi deba, I feel it is not. Either way, hamon depth shouldn't be the deciding factor.

 

Also, if someone is polishing a deba back very so far as to need a hamon that rises to the mei, they're doing something terribly wrong.

[Tsugio Kawakami]

I know they are gyuto, I was meerely showing an example of how the hamon are placed.

i can also tell it's a laminated blade by how the steel is above the lamination. I'd be interested in knowing who made the deba you own. Every example I've seen and handled have had a hamon above the shinogi. I know professionals that will go through a couple of knives a year, and having the hardened portion of the blade that small would only cause them to buy more often. The difference in construction could be simply a different train of thought. Regardless, I would still enjoy seeing a pic of yours.

 

Sean Shepherd

 

The only honyaki pieces I own are yanagiba. I use kasumi deba, Kikuichi. I'm a poor chef... All my spare funds go into MA and swords. I'd be glad to get some pictures of the Masamoto, but I'm embarrassed by the state of the poor knife.

 

As for going through a couple blades a year, that still scares me. I'm using some of the same knives I've been cutting with for five years and there is still life in them. My Masamoto was given to me by one of my previous employers, and it was his knife for almost that long before he gave it to me.

 

I suppose volume could be different, but that's still a lot of metal to destroy in a year's time.

[hybridfiat]

Hi Steve,

 

I have to disagree....I'm but a novice when it comes to nihonto, but I have collected knives acutally custom made knives for more than 30 years....I know about lamination/damascus/sanmei etc etc...but only with tempered blades have I come across a real temperline...please excuse my limitations in getting pics that show appropriately the temperline etc I can see in this blade....if my ability to take pics would be better you would have to agree on this one.

 

I'd appreciate any link that could educate somebody like me to present his objects better in pic form.

 

Jock

 

Thanks Jock, I stand corrected and Im glad to say educated too. This is an interesting post.

[Shepherd]

http://www.nenohi.co.jp/en/faq.html

 

thats the only example I can find that resembles a mizu honyaki deba. A couple years ago I spent 2 weeks going to every knifeshop I could find in Tokyo, and spent a day at the Tokyo guild custom knife show. The people at Masamoto tsukiji are great btw

 

I understand about saving money for martial arts and swords. Good iaito aren't cheap- and you can never have just 1

[Tsugio Kawakami]

http://www.nenohi.co.jp/en/faq.html

 

thats the only example I can find that resembles a mizu honyaki deba. A couple years ago I spent 2 weeks going to every knifeshop I could find in Tokyo, and spent a day at the Tokyo guild custom knife show. The people at Masamoto tsukiji are great btw

 

I understand about saving money for martial arts and swords. Good iaito aren't cheap- and you can never have just 1

 

Shoot...looking frantically for a picture... It's an old, weathered deba with a very tall hamon. The owner lemon-etched it. Anyhow, I know what you're talking about. I think it all just comes down to time period and...well...company/forge?

 

As for iaito...like shoes when I was a kid, I keep outgrowing mine. I'm on a 2-6-4 now. I reeeaally hope I don't outgrow this one any time soon.

[GregD]

These are generally two piece slab construction(althogh i have a couple of Takeda san -mai knives),but what you are missing is that where the welds are between the two slabs the material is removed(or physically upset whith a punch) to make this pattern rather than selectively heat treated like a sword.

Here's something a little older.

Greg